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“which was like a leftist version of The View“…

Wait, what?

Wouldn’t that just be “The View”?

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author

I left a comment out of the piece but Katie may share it at some point 🧐

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Katie sounds like a crazy version of Alex Jones.

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She's just another kind of woke. Woke is getting fired now, thank God.

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You have no understanding of being always the stranger in a strange land.

Ayn Rand was a third rate novelist and lacked a logical foundation for her pseudo philosophy.

Without a social contract libertarianism is insanity.

Katie knows this. Lots of we humans know this but you believe superstitious nonsense.

Here in Quebec Gender, race and religion are not real.

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Oct 6, 2022·edited Oct 6, 2022

Neither is an army real as you depend on the US for your defense. You are a beggar with your hand out saying "Look what I did."

The unworkable philosophy is 10% of the total population paying 87% of the income taxes. 60% of tax payers get back more in Deductions and CREDITS than they paid in taxes.

This is the Communistic influence. Why work when the Government will take care of me.

Ayn Rand came to the US from Russia during the Cold War. Her books were a warning that we did not heed. "Fountainhead" was based on the life of Frank Lloyd Wright (a gifted visionary who is now canceled because of his skin color). We are living "Atlas Shrugged" as all the money went OFF SHORE just as she predicted. Very good for 3rd rate.

Sorry, I'm with Hank Rearden. He was a producer.

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There are NO COMMUNISTS waiting in the bushes.

You are a victim.

The enemy is manufactured nonsense to keep the citizens under control.

I was brought up in Quebec .

The pad lock laws created enemies of the state like librairies and Jehoval Witness Kingdom Halls.

I know 80 years of Bullshit ha\s its affects but please Ayn Rand was a libertine and Chomsky is a libertarian.

Padlock Laws

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Padlock_Law#:~:text=The%20Act%20to%20Protect%20the%20Province%20Against%20Communistic,used%20to%20propagate%20or%20disseminate%20communist%20propaganda.%20

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Moe, you are pretty clearly an idiotic douche bag. Otherwise known as a troll.

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Yes I am a troll. I love America and I hate watching it die.

That is the kind of troll I am. America saved my life and I am trying to do all I can to save America.

Shitheads like yourself refuse to open your fucking eyes. I am a one eyed troll but whether one eye or two I refuse to keep them shut.

I know what real democracy looks like in 2022 and too little remains south of our border.

I feel the pain of so many family that moved south for the opportunity to contribute back to society what they were given only to feel robbed and cheated by pricks like yourself.

Burning Man is only about me in a world where there is only us.

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I understand why you feel that way. I think the better way is not to fire people like Katie for such a reason. This was not a case of non-woke firing someone who is woke. It is a case of one version of woke firing a different version of woke.

As long as it is acceptable to fire people for having unpopular political views, none of us will be safe to have heterodox views. This is not easy. I know that there are some statements or actions that might get me to say that a person should be fired. But we really need to have a set of rules that allow people to be different.

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Pinche mekote. lmao

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It has been a long time Since Pierre Valliere wrote Les Negre Blanch de L'Amerique de Nord.

We had a revolution and Quebec is the freest most democratic, wealthiest and most optimistic nation in the Americas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Valli%C3%A8res

Explain to me Texas.

Why would an alien want to visit Texas?

In my myth and legends Sodom was destroyed for how it welcomed the stranger.

We had an election Monday.

We re-elected an old fart we knew 30 years ago.

On Tuesday he started apologizing for the campaign rhetoric.

We are a secular humanist liberal democracy and every four years we need to clear the air. Then we hug and work together.

The major thing on our political agenda is Universal Dental Care and whether we can train enough dentists, dental surgeons, technicians, technologists, secretaries, and hygenists.

My dentist is a beautiful young women who keeps going on maternity leave every couple of years.

Quebec is ridiculously pro family.

Affordable DAYCARE GUARANTEED. HEALTH EDUCATION AND WELFARE GUARANTEED.

a HIGH FLOOR AND THE SKY IS THE LIMIT ON OUR CEILINGS.

We are Horatio Alger somebody needs to help us with our bootstraps. We generate more small business per capita than ANYWHERE ELSE IN THE aMERICAN eMPIRE.

It is our money and OUR government invests wisely.

Education, education, education education.

Evolution, evolution, evolution evolution.

Conservatism is Armageddon.

I know my Mythology my ancestors wrote your mythology.

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The econo.y of the "nation" of Quebec is 351 billion with a per capita GDP of ~55,000. The US has an economy of 23 trillion and 74,000 gdp per capita.

You have 8.5 million people , no single ethnic minority over 1% , 13% foreign born, with avg 40K immigrants a year when we have 245ak legal and over 1 million illegal, quebec though does not even participate in the country's provincial nominee program, 30% of quebec population believe they have enough sovereignty and should stay Canadian. 79 % believe they should have more autonomy.

Don't preach the virtues of quebec.

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You really should read this, because it seems you missed it the first time. https://taibbi.substack.com/p/on-the-miserable-necessity-of-doing

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Still a shithead eh e.pierce?

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That person spammed me like 60 times yesterday over a 12 hour period. I think any word to describe them will be found in the DSM.

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I am 74 .

My father thought like Katie. I think like Katie it goes back three thousand years.

Cynicism is Socratic.

Cynicism is knowing as bad as it is it is only going to get worse.

This is Cynicism

Tragedy tomorrow

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nv7oljeCJaw

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Where’s the ridiculous all caps ad infinitum repeats? This is weak, just does not have the same effect. You’re losing your touch man. Not even a single asterisk...? Sad pathetic troll damaged ass butt poopoo

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What can I say?

Victoria sounds very reasonably to this imbecilic psychotic troll.

Of course I have been listening to Kinky Friedman and the Texas Jewboys for 50 years and I have given up joining Kinky and Willie on the bus.

The leaves are turning colours and soon I will look for Pearls in the Snow. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpvC7U42rlo&list=PLTikj5vuFrcFAbZzY1bjgmQm3OAFph7

I am a Zionist. My father was a Zionist and his his father was Zionist. We believe all life is sacred and all land is holy land.

We fled your inquisition. We lived in the Basque Country. Our legends tell St Ignatius Loyola was family.

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Our legends tell us we fled the Basque region during your inquisition. They tell us St Ignatius Loyola was family. He taught people like you to read.

I beginning to think what a great mistake that was.

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Time to resign from the human race.

Before all Hell breaks loose

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzUQNnCuUqs&list=PLTikj5vuFrcFAbZzY1bjgmQm3OAFph7Pr&index=6

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Jann Wenner was on JRE. I love you here, of course, but I felt something like nostalgia.

America This Week has been a real surprise and I've listened every week. Walter is perfect for you; it's quite the double act: The Godfather/horse head joke had me dying. I've tuned in to real time and other places to see/hear you, but it never quite worked like it did in your writing. But with Walter, I dig it.

Any chance you bring the band back together and we see some Victor Juhasz? If you read this and remember, which story was it where he drew Obama as a teacher and all of the Republicans were acting up in class, lighting farts and stuff?

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Katie should descend into the comments at some point. I had hoped that SS would be for more than the old "listen while I tell you a story..." It doesn't have to be.

Thanks!

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I think Katie makes a distinction between “Shitlib” and “Leftist”, and I agree

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I agree too. Was going to jump in and make this point, but you made it better. The View, from the bit i know about it, is shitlib Hillary "leftists". Briahna and Katie are Bernie left. Big difference.

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No wonder Matt likes her. He is a Bernie bro.

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So am i, albeit a female one. Or so was I, until he threw in with the Dems and got neutered.

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Is a Shitlib like a Shidiot? Or a Shit Apple? Captain Shitacular? Do they start out as tiny little Shit larvae who become Shiterpillars - a whole pandemic of Shiterpillars - who then turn into Shitmoths?

Asking for Jim Lahey

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A shitleopard never changes its spots

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The Shit Blizzard

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56G4c9FEvZQ

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I never lived in the suburbs. I know my trailer parks. They have their rules. The people are civilized we are the barbarians. We hire mercenaries to do our dirty work.

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Make an actual point and cite your sources.... what is wrong with you? Throwing meaningless words around without substance has zero value in terms of public discourse. Learn how to actually pump a loaf, dear sir. Your comment has no substance.

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He's referencing a show called Trailer Park Boys, a Canadian cult classic. A character in the show would routinely throw the prefix 'shit' on random words. Instead of calling someone a broken record, he'd call them a broken shitrecord.

So the point being made is whether shitlib is actually any different from a liberal, or if it's just a redundant Laheyism.

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TPB was made in my hometown. It's basically a documentary. lol

My brudder is an actor and tried to get on the show, but "Lahey" hated him so no way.

Fuck you Lahey!

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I ve seen trailer parks from San Diego California to St John's NFLD.

People who live in trailer Parks spell brother brudder. They can't read scripts. I lived there with them . You are full of shit.

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I know Bill there is never any parking at Trader Joes in Burlington. Sad

I remember when nobody could afford hamburgers. The good old days in Vermont.

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I am 75.

We are talking the same Vermont we once called Mississippi north and the Same New York State we once called the promised land.

I remember when you went from Ottawa to Ogdensburg and the promised land.

Ottawa is rich, dynamic and growing and Ogdensburg is just waiting to be put out of its misery along with Binghamton and Syracuse.

Burlington has a higher quality of life than Copenhagen.

Senators are representatives of their States. Leahy and Sanders are beyond reproach.

America as a hole is full of shit. The once upon time light to the world. A promising Empire turned into a shithole country.

This is what Milton called ruling in Hell.

This is what John Donne called decay and corruption.

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I am confident Lahey would have called Katie's show "Useful Shitiots"

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That is the Canadian I know well. I spoke it. At 74 I am starting to write it. It was the Lingua Franca. I speak many Canadians both French and English and some Dene and some Cree. I don't watch television I guess I am missing a lot . I watch baseball and haven't watched a hockey game in 30 years.

I live in Hockeytown Canada. Hockey is the religion and I am an Atheist.

A liberal is some one free to change direction. In science we call this evolution. In science we call conservatism extinction.

We teach propaganda in our schools not mythology.

There is no such thing as gender, race and religion in science.

There is no Empirical evidence of their existence.

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Laugh and the whole world laughs with you.

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Eye of a shitticane

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Wrong continent. Ireland . It is the language of the Shanty Irish

Here in Appalachia it is a song of joy and freedom.

It is using words that mean whatever WE want them to mean.

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A sea shanty is Chant as in chanson a song a shanty is a shack a hovel.

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Ha, thank you for that

You can never have too much Lahey

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Frankly my dear I don't give shit. I am 74 and spoke shit fluently 60 years ago.

We called it merde. Here is our mascot singing shit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpRmGxoqCYc

Let us not forget gas

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NT02a-L6OY

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The View supports the Empire, Israel and Hillary. They've attacked Bernie Sanders.

They aren't The Left.

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They’re definitely Progressive Left these days- which is basically all of those things and more.

Hell, In light of his recent voting record, I don’t even think Bernie Sanders is very leftist these days.

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Do they frequently advocate for workers rights, socialized medicine and a less warlike foreign policy? If not, then they're progressive Democrats, not progressive left.

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Yes, you're right about Bernie – these days. He's a neocon on foreign policy. He's called Venezuela's Maduro a dictator.

He voted for the CARES Act, the greatest upward transfer of wealth in human history.

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Maybe he is just being honest. I live north of Vermont they are family.

I agree totally with Bernie even though he is a conservative.

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I'd vote for him. I donated and voted for him when he reached the primary.

I would have voted for him if he won the nomination, but he's just a lesser evil with his hawkish foreign-policy stance.

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Sanders just loves some F35s.

He voted to fund the war on Iraq too. The list just goes on and on.

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I live in a Full Democracy. We had a real revolution during my life time. Power is bottom up.

I went to St Albans and Burlington during the summer as a child. Vermont was rather poor . It was the reddest and the poorest state in the Union as opposed to the Confederacy.

We border Maine , New Hampshire , Vermont and New York.

Vermont seems poor but I remember when New York21 was rich and today Vermont seems poor but NY, Maine and New Hampshire seem second Worldish.

I am 74 and I remember what was. My wife went to University of Chicago before Senator Sanders. She thinks the Senator walks on water.

We know America from Alaska to Florida and we believe the UN when it says Cuba has a higher Quality of life than the USA.

I would rather live in Vermont.

Syracuse , Buffalo, Albany or Binghampton? I'll take Havana.

Miami ? I 'll take Havana eight days a week.

I am 74 and 5-10 extra years of healthy productive years of life, a better education and more security of person that is the prism through which I see America.

I've been through Orlando but not the tourist Orlando. I imagine what kind of Hell it must be to grow up poor in Florida and when I think Florida I think poverty and oligarchy and stupid ignorant assholes running the show.

I know Tallahassee

Florida State is where I look for basket weavers, burger flippers and Republican know nothings.

And Mafia shills from Vegas and New Jersey.

Get a passport we are an inch from Vermont.

The more I look at the decay and corruption the more I believe Bernie walks on water.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

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Oct 5, 2022·edited Oct 6, 2022

I agree. Sadly. About Bernie.

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Bernie supported HIllary, on bended knee.

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Literally just jumped into the Comments to say this 🤣

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founding

LOL me too, I thought I was all witty

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I read that 3 times. How left can you go??

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I just came here to comment on that. So, that would mean digging up Stalin?

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Between Stalin/Lenin and the Hillary crowd of The View is a MASSIVE space. Lots of thoughtful policy ideas that can't even see communism, as it's too far away.

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Stalin was Stalin and Lenin was a totally different dude.

Are you w=one of those Southern Evangelical Satanists?

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Dude, where in the world would you even come up with that question? I don't believe in God, so likely not evangelical. Thanks for the crisp guidance on Lenin vs. Stalin. Perhaps you'd also like to elucidate the differences between Lenin, Trotsky, and Bukharin, and who really should have taken over for Lenin. Both Leninism and Stalinism are quite communist, and both are well away from thoughtful leftists. Pretty simple point.

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It was Atlee, Stalin and Truman who divided up Europe in 1945 at Potsdam New York.

That is why we have a war in central Europe . It was all Ukraine till the 80 years war and the decree of The Holy Roman Empire.

Israel was pretty much the same.

The people belonged to the land and Britain was the Landlord.

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This is where Matt’s commentariat confuses me. I too hate the semantic debates but c’mon.

I don’t even know who’s on the View to be honest but I’ll bet my house they’re not leftists.

Abby Martin, Rania Khalek are leftists. People here seem to think leftist and liberal are interchangeable. Is it ignorance or a tactic to flatten the variety of thought and perspectives they might disagree with?

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It's more that "liberals" constantly try to be farther to the left than "leftists" on social/culture war issues (e.g. # of different genders/pronouns), so it's an open debate which camp is winning the leftward footrace.

To anyone not sprinting leftward at top speed, Liberal vs. Leftist can very easily look like Communists vs. Marxist-Leninists; a distinction without a difference.

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When such labels become so confusing, it is better to define your stances issue by issue.

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I believe the clinical term for the wymxn on the “View” is bat shit crazy

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🤣🤣🤣

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AOC is just a grifter who will say and do whatever it takes to get moar power.

Pelosi is a monster.

Cortez now calls Pelosis "Mama Bear".

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Oh howdy, that caught my eye too....how far left do you have to be to consider “The View” right wing?

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The Veiw, with their authoritarian view of vaccine and mask mandates, pro-regime change wars, advocacy for right-wing Israel and calls for limits on free speech, are well to the right of Tulsi Gabbard. Maybe even Donald Trump.

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That’s also the reason I came to the comment section. I was completely with her until that moment.

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You beat me to it by a few minutes, but yes.

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Maybe if she’d said

“…an *intelligent* version of The View.”. Then there’d be some clear differentiation.

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I'm sure that is basically what she meant. 'A version that more accurately reflects the views of a thoughtful leftist'. She did just get smacked by a major media corporation, probably best to not get your name on those crazy ladies' lips just now.

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No, because The View loves people like Hillary Clinton, Joe Biden, and Nancy Pelosi. Leftists absolutely do not like those people. I think Rania Khalek and Abby Martin have been wrong about a few very important things (not Israel IMO though) and therefore I don't respect them as much as I used to. But neither of them will ever tell you that Democrats are everyone's saviors the way The View does. In fact, before the 2016 election Rania wrote a piece saying that Trump might actually be the lesser evil since his foreign policy rhetoric was less hawkish than Clinton's. I forget whether or not she walked that back after seeing him in office for a while, but does that sound like the kind of thing they'd say on The View? And would anyone on The View even share Katie's take on Israel?

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deletedOct 7, 2022·edited Oct 7, 2022
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Gandhi said non-violence was superior to violence, but violence was superior to non-violent cowardice: "My method of nonviolence can never lead to loss of strength, but it alone will make it possible, if the nation wills it, to offer disciplined and concerted violence in time of danger.

My creed of nonviolence is an extremely active force. It has no room for cowardice or even weakness. There is hope for a violent man to be some day non-violent, but there is none for a coward. I have, therefore, said more than once....that, if we do not know how to defend ourselves, our women and our places of worship by the force of suffering, i.e., nonviolence, we must, if we are men, be at least able to defend all these by fighting."

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I thought the same.

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WOW! I just read this article and you read my mind 20 hrs before I read it lol. Don't know all that much detail about the subject, but reading that told me something about this young lady. Made me chuckle

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I came here for *that*. Thank you.

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LOL - very true. Maybe s/b "hopefully intelligent leftist version of The View" as opposed to "Hollywood moronic leftist"

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Not even fucking close.

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The Hill should have run Halper’s piece and then done another segment on why she’s over simplifying the situation to simply parrot the likes of Tlaib who is in no doubt as anti-Semitic as anyone can be.

Then they could have run a piece taking apart what actually happens with Hamas in Palestine and Israel and who attacks whom and why.

Then, in a random act of journalism, they could have looked into how and why the journalist was killed and informed us of the circumstances.

And then as an aside they could have looked into what would happen to you if you’re LGBTQ in Palestine.

After that perhaps they could also look at which country besides Israel is a democracy in the Middle East and how women are treated in Arab countries as opposed to Israel.

Maybe after that some more actual journalism could have helped us all to understand how Boycott, Divest, Sanction (BDS) is being used against Israel by Palestine.

That would have gone some small way to reassuring us we were enjoying some professional journalism.

This way, the way this is all being presented, including disappointingly by Mr Taibi, is not telling the whole story and consequently as journalism is as guilty of omission as commission.

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Oct 5, 2022·edited Oct 5, 2022

Agreed. I was frankly surprised to see this article. I think Clever Pseudonym (above) says it best. It's arrogant soccer Moms and latte drinking entitled pundits on another campaign to save someone with brown skin in a situation much more complex than is ever properly recited/reported in media. I believe there's got to be another reason woke pundits are focused so strongly on Israel yet ignore basics, like someone killed a fucking bomber and instead only report/lamenting it as 'genocide' when the guy/woman was going to blow a bunch of people up! What do we do when faced with a bomber - you stop them. Until I see something not actually slanted, including from Jews who perform their own version of self immolating "I'm the guilty entitled" narrative when discussing Israel. I don't buy it. There's something else going on.

Who benefits? That's always the question. Someone care to answer?

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Perhaps seen through the prism of unending violence against Jews in whatever country they found themselves in, possible extermination tends to focus the mind.

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You get points for a sort of manic determination, but Carter, really? I still bless the day that fool left office, not a moment too soon.

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As always: Sans knee-jerk. Thanks!!

"..incoherence.." seems to be the point. Americans forever riding a pendulum swinging between distorted and manipulated political extremes, baksheesh and largesse providing the only metric of political economy. Social institutions and human consequence be damned.

This week in my city, two boys, 14 and 15 years old, carjacked a woman and her child, committed several robberies and, looking to "party", tried to enter a residence where a birthday celebration was underway. Refused admittance they opened fire killing the celebrant. The ensuing police chase ended in a car crash and arrest. The Chief of Police admitted complete perplexity. They were from "good" homes. There was no apparent cause or reason. No WHY at all.

The boys were taken to children's court. The only discussion and solution forthcoming was the newscasters implication that vengeance was in order and trying them as adults would send the proper message.

The American psyche has clearly crossed some line of demarcation into the realm of the pathological. The disconnect between the illusion of the way American reality should be and the violent social disintegration and human trauma we witness through the windshield every day is swallowing us alive.

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I was just saying thank's for the history and perspective.

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what u say sounds adult, intelligent and reasonable; of course this is what disqualifies it!

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What?!

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None of your statements above refute that Israel is an Apartheid State. Was this all some kind of mass distraction?

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Explain how it’s apartheid then. But don’t leave out the bit about 5% of the population of Israel being Arabs living lives far more freely than they would in most other parts of the ME.

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Oh my! First of all, the correct number is 20%. That’s the percentage of Israeli Arabs living in Israel. That they all benefit from far more rights in a far more stable country than the neighboring Arab states is shown by the nearly universal rejection of redrawing borders as part of any peace proposal that puts them suddenly under Arab rule.

As to WEVA, I recommend you read the UN convention on the crime of apartheid, focusing specifically on the definition and then compare it to what is actually going on over there. To start your education, here’s the link. Go and learn, as the sages were wont to say.

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/atrocity-crimes/Doc.10_International%20Convention%20on%20the%20Suppression%20and%20Punishment%20of%20the%20Crime%20of%20Apartheid.pdf

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i cant even read this article when it quotes (unironically) sources like "Amnesty International" and "Human Rights Watch" as though both of these organizations haven't been infiltrated by the far left. Anyone who calls Israel "aparthied" or refers to Judea and Samaria as "occupied" lands, clearly does not know either the history of the region, nor the facts on the ground. Try taking a look at UN Watch and Hillel Neuer if you want facts. The UN has been taken over by literal dictator regimes and is a political game - not truth.. Stop trying to tell American Jews that they are responsible for Israeli Government policy, but more importantly, stop trying to use Zionism (literally self-determination of indigenous people in their homeland) as a way to discriminate against American Jews. Just stop it.

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Your “literal” definition of Zionism indicates your ignorance. You might begin overcoming it by reading Jabotinsky.

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👏🏼👏🏼

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I think Katie nailed it in her video that got her canceled/fired, and I don't agree with her on many of her lefty socialist ideas, but its hard to dispute that Israel is practicing apartheid. But that doesn't dismiss that the PA and Hamas are also destroying their own people for power and religious zealotry. Both things can be true, they are not mutually exclusive.

As for a small percentage of Israeli Arabs "living more freely" than other parts of the ME, I guess it depends on who you are--the royal familes in much of the ME live free everywhere they go, including the west. If you're saying that much of the ME is autocratic, I get that, but they're only autocratic because we (the American Empire) want them to be.

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Oct 6, 2022·edited Oct 6, 2022

Did you honestly just state the the freedoms that ME royalty enjoy somehow makes the freedoms that Israeli Arabs enjoy as compared to their non-Israeli counterparts less germaine? That's ludicrous.

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You should talk to an Israeli Palestinian someday and then you might realize that the Israeli government and citizens calling them “Israeli Arabs” is just one of many minor examples of Israeli apartheid.

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"they're only autocratic because we (the American Empire) want them to be." You sure about this? Cuz, it kinda sorta seems like they just want to be autocratic on their own. Please explain. Thx.

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Autocrats serve the empire's interest. Free elections have consequences, often undesirable to the subjugation doctrine of empire. Take the Arab Spring, for example, ousting Mubarak who the US considered a 'good friend' and voting in the Muslim Brotherhood's Morsi who pushed socialist and populist ideas (religion aside). The Egyptian military then sabotaged their own nation to undermine the duly elected president, arrested him and effectively put their country back under military, autocratic rule. Whether Morsi was a decent leader/person is moot here--he was elected, much as Trump or Biden here.

Take the suppression in Bahrain--we endorse and support the autocrat ruler there and say nothing when they murder the minority Shia because it serves our interests (the Fifth Fleet). Saudi is the same, we empower them with logistics, weapons to terrorize Yemeni as it serves our interest to quash popular uprising even if it is funded/supported by outside influence (Iran).

The Arab people are simply cannon fodder for the Great Game as all non-elites have been for thousands of years. Look at Ukraine--whomever you support there, the people are the ones who suffer while the MIC and politicians profit--again, at the American Empire's behest.

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Not sure how this is a response to me, but ok..

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We are their lap dogs because we're dependent on their oil, not the other way around.

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I would think Nelson Mandela might have a good insight into what is apartheid. Do you feel he was wrong to call it so in Palestine? If you think he was wrong, could you possibly read more of his opinions before replying?

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I feel he was wrong, yes. Not sure of his motivations for saying this (nor are you) but please tell us all exactly how Israel is an "Apartheid state" without a simple appeal to authority. Cheers.

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Except Mandela never said that Israel was an apartheid state … and one of his grandson’s strongly disagrees with a comparison that makes light of the sufferings of black South Africans under the real thing.

Haaretz, a paper that could be trusted to find that quote, couldn’t. Here’s a link to real quotes by Mandela on the general topic.

https://www.haaretz.com/2013-12-09/ty-article/.premium/mandela-tough-but-fair-on-israel/0000017f-e108-d38f-a57f-e75a345c0000?_amp=true

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I don't care what Mandela thought

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Easy to say now, after the claim that Mandela said Israel was an apartheid state has been refuted.

You might want to think about why it is that much of the anti-Israel (or anti-Zionist) talking points fall apart upon the merest fact-checking.

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I have read his opinions and he’s entitled to them. He was very much in favor of a two state solution, which initially put him at odds with Palestine given they have not agreed to that to this day. But in the end he became increasingly anti-Semitic, he openly encouraged PLO violence against Israel which led to the second intifada in 1999 and the deaths of thousands. And the bloodshed continues to this day doesn’t it.

There’s a lot to admire in Mandela no doubt. But he was only human, he didn’t always get it right. Mandela laid a wreath on the grave of Ayatollah Khomeini, the father of the Iranian revolution, warmly greeting his successor, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei. “We are indebted to the Islamic Revolution”, Mandela proclaimed.

In 2000, the American Jewish Committee canceled a Washington luncheon scheduled to honor Mandela after he said that 13 Jews tried for “espionage” in Iran were receiving a “fair trial”.

That aside there’s no claiming Israel is not at fault here, they most definitely bear blame and should face the ramifications for many of their actions against Palestine. But to be completely with one side or the other perpetuates the notion one is the victim the other aggressor. That’s simply not the case. Except of course in the minds of the extreme on either side, like Tlaib. I’m sure she has many Israeli counterparts.

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Goodness gracious you’re quite the anti-Semite aren’t you. You accuse others of exactly what you yourself are guilty of, open bigotry towards others in another tribe.

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You mean under the Nation State Law?

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No, but you're sounding a lot like a troll now.

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Gave you a heart for "a random act of journalism"

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Exactly, it defies logic to me to in any way to sympathize with “Palestinians” versus Israelis. One willingly sacrifices it’s children as suicide bombers, the other is a civilized democracy with a thriving, innovative economy. The Palestinians lob missiles indiscriminately at Israeli civilians while Israel takes great care to precision bomb those sites from which the missiles come. Arabs in Israel can be full citizens, not quite the same as a Jew in “Palestine”.

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But, you think rationally and point out obvious truths, therefore, that apparently doesn't qualify you to know anything about Israel according to the woke crowd ranting on this page.

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While there are people who support BDS but are not anti-Semitic, the campaign is founded on a rejection of Israel’s very existence as a Jewish state. It denies the Jewish people the right to self-determination – a right universally afforded to other groups.

BDS is celebrated and encouraged by the left..

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Did you copy and paste your comment from Haaretz?

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Like they take great care to shoot Pals in the knees? Just the knees, you know to cripple them. That kind of care?

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This is tiresome. The Israelis have the military to completely destroy the “Palestinians “ if they wished. They do not, credit them with that much restraint at least. Have a nice life, enjoy your embrace of terrorist thugs. I will disengage from this conversation, as rational discourse appears to be impossible with the supporters of “Palestine”.

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Credit them with not committing genocide, you mean? Laughable.

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"Israel takes great care" is a bit propagandistic. They've been known to be fairly indiscriminate in what they blow up. Granted, Hamas loves to store & launch rockets from schools, hospitals, and any other locations where they can score PR points from Israeli counter-fire

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The only source that I have seen on where Hamas stores its weapons is from US/Isreali media.

That aside, "don't shell schools"

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The facts speak for themselves, I am free to chose what I believe to be true as are you. The thing I love about the US is you have the absolute right to be an idiot.

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I came to make these points and am glad to have found them so well laid out. I too am disappointed by this reductionist, pseudo intellectual perspective on the Israeli-Palestine conflict.

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Bahaha tell me more about how you're a foolish, narrow minded racist prog who wrongly thinks you have a firm grasp on global politics. Keep promoting the "Zionist colonizer" tripe as Palestinians allow themselves to be pawns to radically anti-Semitic and racist groups like Hezbollah. 😂🤣😂

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Does not Geneva convention state that any people occupied by a foreign nation has the right to resist by any means necessary? And suggesting Israel as a “democracy”? I would love to hear that argument just as we, the American taxpayer, never got to vote on the $10M/day that makes its way in the form of weapons & cash to an apartheid country (that’s not always LGBTQ friendly, if i recall) so it can “mow the lawn” every every few years. The question is always, who has the power? We already have the so-called journalism on Israel you prefer: mainstream media. Also known as hasbara.

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The “by any means necessary” argument is false and it’s constant, mindless repetition does not make it “true”. International law is clear that terrorist attacks against civilians is never lawful and cannot be justified.

Even the UNSC rejects the concept that there is some national liberation exception to terrorism and has passed numerous binding resolutions to that effect as part of its international effort to suppress terrorism.

And speaking of national liberation movements, the uniqueness of the Palestinian one is that it is the only such movement that has no indigenous (in this case Arabic) name for its supposed historical homeland, importing instead a Western name that is Arabicized. It’s certainly suggestive that something very different is afoot.

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Hold on, that sounds like work.

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Great post. I have to laugh at the “girl power” Toyota Land Cruiser commercial where they brag about rallying in the Empty Quarter and I was like “that was totally illegal for women in SA until 2018 or whenever”.

A true exchange of ideas means getting factual realities straight first!

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You really take the cake when it comes to omissions. Like the whole history of that colonial enterprise called Israel

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So explain to us what the “colonial” beginnings of Israel are then?

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Settling in a land with the end goal of ridding it of its people to take it over under the pretext of a divine mission defining you as a chosen people.

Giving yourself the right to commit ethnic cleansing and depicting yourself as a victim in the process. The world is seeing the truth more and more clearly.

You're occupying a land that you conquered by a war of agression and the only reason you don't annex it is because you don't want to give civil rights to the people living there. That's exactly apartheid

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I’m an Irish Christian. No ties to Israel other than what happens there has a ripple effect in the world. Although I should say I did live in the Arab ME for 10 years.

Suggestion for you. You need to do more reading on the origins of this conflict, and not from a left wing viewpoint perhaps. Your understanding is quite narrow based on your comments. All the best.

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No one on the planet is unaware of the official Israel narrative bullshit. As narrow understanding goes, you're incapable of providing opposing facts to what I wrote because you're the one who needs to do more reading on this topic

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Whatever, it’s clear you really don’t have any interest in having a decent discussion or seeing anything from another perspective. Like a couple of other commenters on here your anti-semitic hatred runs deep judging from your vitriol towards the subject. Let’s just agree to disagree. All the best. Bye.

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Wack job. Yeah, all colonialists stop taking over more territory because they don't want the world police to make them give the people civil rights. Makes complete sense.

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Well, they could annex the territories and decide the people already living there wouldn't have the right to vote. Although it wouldn't change anything much to the reality, it would make it

a little too obvious

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Nice JAE. Matt????

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Yes. This is the comment I was looking for. The demonization of Israel is antisemitic at it's core.

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Thanks, this is a typical example of leftist antisemitism - portraying the Jews' fight to keep the only democracy in the Middle East as sinister. All their neighbors want them dead for the "crime" of being Jews. That alone should make any democracy-minded person question the hatred towards Israel.

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Too much work

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What?!

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President Carter is a very well meaning man, full of good intentions. But we know what the path to hell is paved with, don’t we. Carter was one of the most ineffectual and misguided presidents the US has ever had, he brought about enormous misery for his country. So as a source of wisdom and leadership he’s sadly, and without doubt, lacking in too many aspects.

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Here, here. I also find that looking at the current situation of the Israeil-Palestinian conflict in the here and now without historical context to be extremely disingenuous at the very least. Probably more likely there is a lot of willfully ignoring of the facts that got us to where we are today.

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Hahahaha, so according to you we shouldn’t strive for more nuanced journalism, and journalists should be believed and not questioned if it corresponds to a certain worldview. That smacks of the very thing you’re accusing the AIPAC of doing.

Not sure what the “5,000” year comment as it pertains to Israel/Palestine in the present day. But I would suggest you get a broader perspective on the ME, from your comments your thinking sounds quite narrow. For example consider the rights of women and the LGBTQ community in Israel as opposed to the rest of the ME, start there perhaps. And then do reference in law the legitimacy of being attacked by a warring aggressor and the accumulation of land ownership by the party who’s attacked. It’s interesting stuff.

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Israelis would probably dispute that taking statements from Amnesty International/Human Rights Watch at face value really counts as "approaching the subject with great care". They're about as impartial regarding Israel as the Kremlin is regarding Ukraine.

That said, Katie absolutely should not have been fired over it.

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On the other hand, I have read stuff in Haaretz critical of Israel that, if published in an American news outlet, would get the editor fired.

In Israel, they can and do discuss policies we are not allowed to discuss here.

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Yeah, no one at The NY Times would publish Gideon Levy or Amira Hass. I keep a subscription to English-language Haaretz just for that reason. They are occupation-critical left-liberal, but it’s articles are well informed on the region and topics.

The Israel/Palestine debate in US media on the other hand offers just the same stifling shallow talking points and propaganda from both sides that everyone knows by heart by now. Go read the comments under this article for instance-- behold the sheer tedium of it.

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I remember reading a Chomsky opinion - a part about how whenever the USA has completed their use of Israel they will “chuck them in the ocean” or something similar - like they do with any entity after it has served their purpose.

Better to befriend your neighbour and make peace before your super power “friend” tosses you overboard. Peace.

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and when the US stops serving Israels agenda they too will be tossed aside

Politics don´t love, they suffer arranged marriages of convenience

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Hasn't that process already started? Wasn't Obama obvious?

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there was a brief geopolitical moment when it seemed like ME oil didn´t matter anymore, yes.

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You mean he never bowed low enough?

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Now that’s interesting. I always wonder where the best places to get Russian news would be; I read RT and Sputnik, but I have no way of knowing how much it’s been f’d with. What a strange time.

I kinda want solid opinions from Israel, Germany, Britain, China, and certainly Russia. But I don’t even know how to cut through the BS in my home countries media so I don’t even know where to start.

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Want to know the truth about the USA and the western world? Read the official Russian translation of President Putins speech. It's all factual and it ain't pretty. We're as evil as anyone in the history of the world.

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LMAO, ah yes everyone knows Putin as the politician who never told a lie. Eat your heart out Abe Lincoln.

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Please cite a lie in his speech.

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1) “In 1991, at Belovezh Forest, without asking the will of common citizens, representatives of the then-party elites decided to destroy the USSR, and people suddenly found themselves cut off from their motherland. This tore apart and dismembered our nation, becoming a national catastrophe"

As if the common citizens didn't absolutely want the fuck out of USSR control.

2) “We call on the Kyiv regime to immediately end hostilities, end the war that they unleashed back in 2014"

Russia invaded Crimea in 2014, not the other way around

3) “The West … began its colonial policy back in the Middle Ages"

Medieval Europe had its issues, but colonialism wasn't one of them

Should I continue?

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Not sure if it's "news" or just information and analysis from the Russian perspective, but check out Gilbert Doctorow, The Saker and Big Serge's Substack for the views on Ukraine, for news TASS, the Moscow Times and a more anti-Putin stance, Meduza.

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I might be way off on this, but I perceive Haaretz as a sort of Israeli version of the Guardian. Better informed readers should jump in to correct me.

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I don't know if I'd say they're as far left as the Guardian, but definitely a left-leaning Israeli publication.

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Oct 6, 2022·edited Oct 6, 2022

Left as the Guardian? You’re twenty years behind on that one. They become raving neocons after the raid on their offices.

And Jonathan Friedland held control.

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and with a rather small and decreasing readership. It is not a significant factor in Israeli society or politics, and it’s journalistic integrity has been questioned on many occasions, but none of that has stopped The NY Times and others from relying on its reporting as if it were Israel’s newspaper of record.

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Agreed. I don't know if Israel has a real newspaper of record. Times of Israel plays it pretty straight, but it's a smallish operation. Haaretz is pretty far left; Jerusalem Post is to the right. Can't think of any others.

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I'd put them roughly on par with NPR/MSNBC

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I could not agree more with your take on this.

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This is true and to their credit. None the less the same assholes remain in power and the same bloody wars drag on for decades.

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That's true, but it's also true that Gideon Levy needs an armed guard to go shopping.

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There is a level of duplicity on the part of both Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch. Both redefined the legally accepted, and popularly understood, crime of “apartheid” to fit Israeli actions (and frankly those of many Western states too). They did this knowing that Israel was not close to committing apartheid as defined in the international convention outlawing it. Freedom House and the Democracy Index, hardly bastions of Zionist thought, both rate Israel highly in their metrics, in some cases ahead of the US and some EU countries. But AI and HRW went ahead anyway, confident that many would leap on the word without recognizing - or perhaps caring - that it now meant something very different. It’s a disingenuous gambit unworthy of any human rights monitor.

Given the arrant nonsense, misinformation and basic lack of historical knowledge that permeates our media when Israel is concerned, I find it hard to believe that this “radar” alone constituted a firing offense. The story seems a bit too tidy.

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I lived in South Africa during apartheid. What is happening in Israel is actually worse. Maybe apartheid is not the right term, as you say, but it is an effort to quantify how badly the occupied terrorizes are treated. Maybe we should come up with a term worse than apartheid. Of course, that would immediately get one smeared with the anti-Semite gun. As does anything critical of Israel.

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Having lived in apartheid South Africa, perhaps you should spend some time living in Israel. It is evident from your comment that you know nothing about the reality on the ground there. As I mentioned earlier both Freedom House and the Democracy Index put the lid to your claim.

I will also volunteer some advice: if you want to be taken seriously, you should abjure what is known as the Livingstone formulation. It’s always a bad look and reeks of bad faith argument. Your description of Israel comes from a place of lack of knowledge or malice. Only you know which it is, and that’s between you and your own conscience.

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Thank you for proving my point so eloquently in this and your other responses. I understand your frustration at having to face facts with your various convenient, but historically unsupported, narratives, but lashing out so histrionically is always a bad tactic in adult argument.

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If you think occupied Palestinians have it bad read about the non occupied ones

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Almost certain you did not.

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You are delusional. It’s fine to be critical. What are your thoughts on Islamism and the Islamist hatred of all things Israel ? Groovy?

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Oct 5, 2022·edited Oct 5, 2022

Israel has a robust and thriving democracy for its citizens. It has over 3M people in a fictitious "occupied zone" which has now existed for over 50 years where the residents don't have any say in their occupiers political decisions. That's what apartheid is. That's what the South Africans did too. Palestinians are second class "citizens", not even citizens of the nation that controls their borders, their economy, their freedom of movement and their natural resources.

Dictionary definition:

a·part·heid

/əˈpärtˌ(h)āt,əˈpärtˌ(h)īt/

noun

HISTORICAL

(in South Africa) a policy or system of segregation or discrimination on grounds of race.

segregation on grounds other than race.

Another definition:

specifically : a former policy of segregation and political, social, and economic discrimination against the nonwhite majority in the Republic of South Africa

NOTE: The extreme racial segregation of apartheid lasted from 1948 to 1994 and included such restrictions as where people of certain races (see RACE entry 1 sense 1a) could live or own land, what jobs they could hold, and who could and couldn't participate in government.

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Aside from the fact that international law prohibits Israel from extending its laws throughout the former Mandate territories illegally seized by Jordan and taken back by Israel in 1967, you missed the Oslo Accords which left 95% of Palestinians ruled by the PA or Hamas. So even under your broader definition either Israel is not an apartheid state or international law requires any state that occupies territory of another to follow an apartheid system. And even then, as the Palestinians were never sovereign over any part of the land, to call them “Occupied Palestinian Territory” is a political not a legal term.

As an aside, are you suggesting the existence of a Jewish race? I thought such deluded foolishness ended with WWII.

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Oct 7, 2022·edited Oct 7, 2022

Palestinians absolutely used to be citizens of a state, before Israel took that from them. What history book do you read where they have always been stateless?

You are the person who called it "Occupied Palestinian Territory” not me.

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"Palestinians" were citizens of a state, all right. It was called the Ottoman Empire, of which Palestine was only a geographic region. And Palestinians were both Jews and Arabs, not just Arabs.

Jewish residents of Palestine were as entitled as Arab residents of Palestine to have a state of their own on that land as part of the post-WWI Mandate process. Jews accepted the UN's proposal of only half of Palestine for their state, leaving the other half for Arabs. Arabs rejected the concept of sharing a land rightfully claimed by TWO people, invaded the Jewish half, lost the war and then their land.

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Okay that’s all true. But they are currently denied citizenship of any nation, which is a basic violation of human rights. Who else in the world is denied citizenship?

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I write that Palestinians considered themselves to be South Syrians, not a part of something called the Mandate of Palestine. Under Ottoman rule, of course, the Arabs were subjects of the Sultan, not citizens of some democratic state.

In any case, this is a red herring. The issue remains that at no time in history did a group then identifying itself as “Palestinians” ever exercise sovereignty in any portion of what was determined by the League of Nations to have been the historical homeland of the Jewish people.

It’s pretty straightforward claim and so far no so-called pro-Palestinian advocate has been able to refute it - something that has sent follower commenter epierce into paroxysms of rage and abusive name because the case he would like to present is at best a distortion when it is not evidence-free altogether.

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Zionists suffer collective PTSD. It happens to traumatized groups just like "shell shock" effects a certain number of soldiers in any war.

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I don't agree that occupation=apartheid; the US should never have invaded Iraq but that doesn't mean they imposed an "apartheid regime" on the Iraqis. Or the Afghans for that matter.

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It’s not the occupation that makes it apartheid, it’s the setting up of a fake pseudo state with none of the real powers of a state and pretending that this is valid.

If we had colonized Iraq and set up two partitions, one where the American’s lived with full rights and a distinct with no real rights, then we would have been guilty of apartheid too.

Also, the time of occupation matters. Generations after generation are living in some soet of suspended animation in Palestine, to the point where it is obvious Israel prefers the status quo.

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"it’s the setting up of a fake pseudo state with none of the real powers of a state and pretending that this is valid."

That's.... occupation. Maybe colonization if you're feeling uncharitable. Still not apartheid by a long shot. Otherwise Russia is imposing apartheid on Belarus and Crimea, and China is imposing apartheid on Hong Kong. Apartheid is everywhere if you define it loosely enough.

Arab/Muslim inhabitants of the Israel side of the partition have full rights, so again, not apartheid.

"it is obvious Israel prefers the status quo". Sure, but "prefer" is a relative term. Israel prefers occupying the West Bank over being on the receiving end of rocket fire. The core motivation for the occupation is self preservation.

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No one claims that the rights of Arab Israeli citizens are being violated so you are using a red herring here.

The Arab/Muslims on the Palestinian side do not have full rights, in fact many of their rights are violated, including many of those listed in the definition of apartheid by the ICC.

I will quote extensively from the "International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid" UN resolution 3068

I will quote at length as it is really informative how many of these rights are being abridged.

"Any legislative measures and other measures calculated to prevent a racial group or

groups from participation in the political, social, economic and cultural life of the country and

the deliberate creation of conditions preventing the full development of such a group or

groups, in particular by denying to members of a racial group or groups basic human rights

and freedoms, including the right to work, the right to form recognized trade unions, the right to education, the right to leave and to return to their country, the right to a nationality, the right to freedom of movement and residence, the right to freedom of opinion and expression, and the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association;"

"any measures, including legislative measures, designed to divide the population

along racial lines by the creation of separate reserves and ghettos for the members of

a racial group or groups, the prohibition of mixed marriages among members of

various racial groups, the expropriation of landed property belonging to a racial

group or groups or to members thereof;"

Israel denies citizenship to Palestinians, limits their freedom of movement, denies them the right to leave and reenter their land, destroys their housing, takes their land with no compensation, and deny them the right to participation in work and other fundamental rights.

They even have a racist law that punishes Jewish people who marry Palestinians!

Is Russia committing apartheid in Crimea? Do Crimeans have their rights systematically denied by Russia and does Russia deny them the right to citizenship, the right to movement, and all the other hallmarks of apartheid?

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Or the United Nations, for that matter! Her opinion is bullshit, but she should not have been censored or fired for it. The Hill wants opinion journalism, she gave it to them good and hard.

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