Apparently you don't know much about Judaism. Zionism is a basic of Jewish thought and law. We are tied to our ancestral homeland. You can say what you want but when you push me off campus because I'm Jewish you are clearly in the wrong.
Apparently you don't know much about Judaism. Zionism is a basic of Jewish thought and law. We are tied to our ancestral homeland. You can say what you want but when you push me off campus because I'm Jewish you are clearly in the wrong.
All of us came from Judea Samaria but were spread over the world when we were expelled twice. The Arabs are only indigenous to Saudi Arabia. They are colonizers elsewhere whereas the Jews are indigenous to what is now Israel as well as parts of Lebanon and Jordan (new states created by Europeans who wanted the oil).
I'm trying to understand the history being discussed: '[Arabs] are colonizers' might suggest that they tried to take over your land - when was that? And since what time are jews indigenous to Palestine?
тАЬPalestineтАЭ was the name given to the land of Judea by the conquering Romans. They intended it as an insult. It has nothing to do with the Arabs calling themselves Palestinian today. It later became the name of the British controlled territory, mostly comprising Jordan, after the Ottoman invaders were defeated.
Greeks, actually. The people who Jews called Gentiles were often Hellenic and were hated by the Jews. In the modern age, it was the West that gave us the name Palestine to describe the area of conflict today.
The Greeks were first to refer to area as Palestinia (╬ж╬╣╬╗╬╣╧Г╧Д╬▒╬п╬┐╬╣) much earlier and it translate to Philistine. Rome used that term as a means of ridicule calling Jews Philistines.
May I suggest reading the 12/02/1948 letter to the NYT signed by Hannah Arendt, Albert Einstein, and a a number of prominent Jews.
Three excerpts from it:
"Among the most disturbing political phenomena of our times is the emergence in the newly created state of Israel of the "Freedom Party" (Tnuat Haherut), a political party closely akin in its organization, methods, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties."
"The public avowals of Begin's party are no guide whatever to its actual character. Today they speak of freedom, democracy and anti-imperialism, whereas until recently they openly preached the doctrine of the Fascist state. It is in its actions that the terrorist party betrays its real character; from its past actions we can judge what it may be expected to do in the future."
AND
"The undersigned therefore take this means of publicly presenting a few salient facts concerning Begin and his party; and of urging all concerned not to support this latest manifestation of fascism."
Then they really aren't practicing religious Jews, are they? You are merely saying you are not religious. That being said, discriminating against someone because of the religion they practice or do not practice is against the law in this country.
Yes, and if Zionist Jews from Europe push indigenous people of Palestine off their ancestral homeland because they are not Jewish, then they are clearly in the wrong.
Individual conscience and freedom of speech and publication should be protected on college campuses and other public places in America. Fights may break out over hot issues, but if they do, the authorities should discipline impartially according to who did what, not according to who was on what side.
Campus administrators should not be forcing views, values, or tendentious framings on anyone. Zionists should not be required to condemn Israel, and people opposed to the Gaza genocide should not have to condemn so-called "antisemitism."
Certainly no one should be harassed or pushed around if they are not currently taking part in an altercation.
Interesting that last Sunday my pastor was teaching on Joshua 13 and we were looking at maps of the land God gave to the Israelites and the areas given by lot to each of the 12 tribes. Notably, the coastal area from north of Tyre and south to Gaza and a smaller area to the west called Golan were shown as still in Philistine hands. God told Joshua and Joshua told the Israelites that the Philistines must not only be driven out but also annihilated due to their grossly sinful religious practices (child sacrifice being among them). They were an abomination on the land, and that's why they were ordered to be killed. But the Israelites were tired of fighting the war and let those people stay in the land against God's direct orders. And they have been a thorn in Israel's side ever since. As far as I know, Israel has not attempted to drive the current descendants of the Philistines off or out of the land since they are still in Gaza and the Golan Heights. So where's the beef? They still have their land AND they want to agitate and obliterate Israel. By my reckoning they have ancient Israel and current Israel to thank for the land they live on and themselves to thank for their misery because they have chosen to hate Israel more than they love their children. Typical of a society rejected by God.
A lot of ethnic and religious changes have taken place over the past three thousand and some years. Yes, the Philistines stayed in their lands in Gaza and a bit north, though I don't know that they ever reached as far north as Tyre or the Golan. Tyre was Phoenician, and the Golan Heights were probably Aramaean, related to Damascus and inland Syria. The Philistines may have originally been Cretans, or settlers in Crete, who returned or invaded the area during the Late Bronze Age collapse, around 1200 BC. They were a strong, warrior people who fought with the Israelites long after the time of Joshua, and dominated them during the period of Eli and Samuel. Saul fought with them, and David mostly beat them down, though they kept their cities along the coast. They stayed their own people at least down to the time that the Romans took over, and the Romans called the whole area "Palestine" after the Philistines, right next to Egypt on the coast, with whom they were most closely in touch.
Under the Romans, after the time of Jesus, the Judeo-Israelite peoples of Judea revolted a couple of times, were crushed, and had a lot of their leading classes deported. These became the nucleus of the later Jewish people, who lived as cosmopolitan diaspora people from then on, and whose numbers were certainly augmented by converts from the peoples they lived among. The people who were left remained Jews for a while, but many eventually converted to Christianity. Later, in the 630s AD, they were conquered along with the rest of the Middle East by the Arabs, who had just been converted to Islam by Muhammad. Over the following centuries, most of them converted to Islam as well, and adopted the dominant Arabic language.
This was still the situation in the early twentieth century. "Palestine" was the region of the Middle East that roughly corresponded to the area of ancient and modern Israel, including the old Philistine region. Its people were Middle Eastern, spoke Arabic, and were mostly Muslim, some Christian, and a few Jewish. They were probably mainly the descendants of the ancient Canaanites and Israelites, who had always lived in that land.
Meanwhile, in Europe, a Jewish nationalist movement arose, called Zionism. The Zionists, speaking for a 2000-year-old diaspora people who were largely European in descent at this time, argued that the Jews should have a physical country of their own, and that that country should be Palestine, the scene of the ancient Israel of their heroic religious past.
After the Second World War, millions of Jews were left displaced, lost, and traumatized. The Zionists organized many of these to move to Palestine and settle there. They had leverage with the dominant Western powers plus war-fighting experience, and were able to beat the Palestinians and the Arab powers that supported them and establish the country of Israel as a Jewish state.
The Palestinians were mostly pushed off their lands into refugee camps, and into the Gaza Strip. The people of Gaza are not just the descendants of the ancient Philistines, but people who were driven off their ancestral lands from all over Palestine/Israel. The rapid or gradual uprooting and dispossession of Palestinians from their land to give to immigrant Jews has been ongoing since the beginning of the state of Israel. Since Israel is founded as a Jewish state, non-Jewish Palestinians have no rights there. They can be robbed, arrested, or murdered at will by the Israeli government, which serves the interests of Jewish settlers. This is the "beef."
My understanding is that there are many Arabic citizens of Israel and as such they have the same rights as all other Israeli citizens. Your last two sentences don't make any sense. There are Muslim mosques in Israel. "Palestinian" people live and work freely as citizens in Israel, as I understand it.
Zionism is a desire to return to the land of the Bible that God gave them. I understand that for some this is not a religious statement or a statement of faith. Too bad for them. And perhaps it is comparable to gentiles thinking they are Christians just because they aren't Jewish even though they have no saving faith in Jesus Christ - just something to grab onto. God will sort them out in the end as to who is what according to His standard.
Yes well we don't know do we which god will sort things out. Even more, the occupation and genocide are legal issues not religious ones. And it seems the original problem was political.
Yes, there are some Arabic-speaking, Muslim or Christian Palestinian citizens of Israel who do have rights, so you are right to call me on that. I believe these were incorporated in the early years when Jewish immigrants were taking over the land, could not easily get rid of them all, and wanted to put on a face of liberal tolerance so the Zionists could make exactly that argument. As I recall, they make up about 20% of the Israeli population. The Zionists do not want the non-Jewish population to get much over that.
There may be a difference between town people and country people who work the land. The people who have suffered most from the Zionist project to settle a long-settled land with Jews would be the farmers, because it is the land that is to be made all Jewish. Cities can tolerate a few exotic foreigners and even let them be citizens, because they are loose and rootless, and can be expelled at any time by a change of the rules.
Much of what is pre-1967 Israel has already been ethnically cleansed on the land, with that 20% Palestinian citizen minority left over. It's the occupied West Bank, whose people have suffered gradual dispossession in favor of Jewish settlers ever since 1967, and the Gaza Strip, which is hemmed in and whose people have been shot, bombed, and terrorized with impunity for decades by Israel, whose people have no rights under dominance by the Jewish state.
Right, thanks. I think the Palestinian citizens of Israel are not recruited/impressed into the Israeli military, as Jewish citizens are. I don't know much about their situation, so I was hoping someone more knowledgeable would chime in here.
I wish I could recall where I saw it - maybe Aaron Mate. But it's ridiculous to talk about Palestinian rights in Israel when it's Israel that violates Palestinian rights by occupying their land - not to mention the killing and destruction.
The west violates laws, murders, and destroys to perpetuate democracy and the rule of law? Really?? How many comments here discuss THAT elephant in the room?
And how many of us here confront our federal, state, and local PUBLIC SERVANTS with THAT contradiction? ['public servants' = what they're supposed to be]
Apparently you don't know much about Judaism. Zionism is a basic of Jewish thought and law. We are tied to our ancestral homeland. You can say what you want but when you push me off campus because I'm Jewish you are clearly in the wrong.
Um, no, all Jews are not Zionists and not all connected to a Middle Eastern homeland?
All of us came from Judea Samaria but were spread over the world when we were expelled twice. The Arabs are only indigenous to Saudi Arabia. They are colonizers elsewhere whereas the Jews are indigenous to what is now Israel as well as parts of Lebanon and Jordan (new states created by Europeans who wanted the oil).
I'm trying to understand the history being discussed: '[Arabs] are colonizers' might suggest that they tried to take over your land - when was that? And since what time are jews indigenous to Palestine?
тАЬPalestineтАЭ was the name given to the land of Judea by the conquering Romans. They intended it as an insult. It has nothing to do with the Arabs calling themselves Palestinian today. It later became the name of the British controlled territory, mostly comprising Jordan, after the Ottoman invaders were defeated.
Greeks, actually. The people who Jews called Gentiles were often Hellenic and were hated by the Jews. In the modern age, it was the West that gave us the name Palestine to describe the area of conflict today.
It was the Romans in 135 C.E. who named Judea Syria Palestina.
The Greeks were first to refer to area as Palestinia (╬ж╬╣╬╗╬╣╧Г╧Д╬▒╬п╬┐╬╣) much earlier and it translate to Philistine. Rome used that term as a means of ridicule calling Jews Philistines.
In fact a large number of Jews are anti-Zionists. Going back to Albert Einstein, among others.
Many are involved in the current protests opposing the ongoing genocide.
Check your facts. Einstein not only was a Zionist he helped found Hebrew University in Jerusalem. And there is no genocide in Gaza.
May I suggest reading the 12/02/1948 letter to the NYT signed by Hannah Arendt, Albert Einstein, and a a number of prominent Jews.
Three excerpts from it:
"Among the most disturbing political phenomena of our times is the emergence in the newly created state of Israel of the "Freedom Party" (Tnuat Haherut), a political party closely akin in its organization, methods, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties."
"The public avowals of Begin's party are no guide whatever to its actual character. Today they speak of freedom, democracy and anti-imperialism, whereas until recently they openly preached the doctrine of the Fascist state. It is in its actions that the terrorist party betrays its real character; from its past actions we can judge what it may be expected to do in the future."
AND
"The undersigned therefore take this means of publicly presenting a few salient facts concerning Begin and his party; and of urging all concerned not to support this latest manifestation of fascism."
You can find the entire text at: https://archive.org/details/AlbertEinsteinLetterToTheNewYorkTimes.December41948
As for genocide not occurring, I take it you differ with the ICC.
Also Glenn Greenwald, Dave Smith, Aaron Mate, Max Blumenthal. . .
And Katie Halper, Norman Finkelstein, and some lesser knowns...
https://www.academia.edu/40856690/Why_I_left_the_cult
https://www.amazon.com/Yahweh-Zion-Jealous-Promised-Civilizations/dp/0996143041
https://www.jewishpress.com/sections/features/features-on-jewish-world/the-anti-nazi-boycott-vs-the-haavara-agreement-still-a-provocative-question/2021/10/20/
https://benjaminmoser.substack.com/
There is no genocide in Gaza.
What would you call that slaughter then?
Then they really aren't practicing religious Jews, are they? You are merely saying you are not religious. That being said, discriminating against someone because of the religion they practice or do not practice is against the law in this country.
Yes, and if Zionist Jews from Europe push indigenous people of Palestine off their ancestral homeland because they are not Jewish, then they are clearly in the wrong.
Individual conscience and freedom of speech and publication should be protected on college campuses and other public places in America. Fights may break out over hot issues, but if they do, the authorities should discipline impartially according to who did what, not according to who was on what side.
Campus administrators should not be forcing views, values, or tendentious framings on anyone. Zionists should not be required to condemn Israel, and people opposed to the Gaza genocide should not have to condemn so-called "antisemitism."
Certainly no one should be harassed or pushed around if they are not currently taking part in an altercation.
Interesting that last Sunday my pastor was teaching on Joshua 13 and we were looking at maps of the land God gave to the Israelites and the areas given by lot to each of the 12 tribes. Notably, the coastal area from north of Tyre and south to Gaza and a smaller area to the west called Golan were shown as still in Philistine hands. God told Joshua and Joshua told the Israelites that the Philistines must not only be driven out but also annihilated due to their grossly sinful religious practices (child sacrifice being among them). They were an abomination on the land, and that's why they were ordered to be killed. But the Israelites were tired of fighting the war and let those people stay in the land against God's direct orders. And they have been a thorn in Israel's side ever since. As far as I know, Israel has not attempted to drive the current descendants of the Philistines off or out of the land since they are still in Gaza and the Golan Heights. So where's the beef? They still have their land AND they want to agitate and obliterate Israel. By my reckoning they have ancient Israel and current Israel to thank for the land they live on and themselves to thank for their misery because they have chosen to hate Israel more than they love their children. Typical of a society rejected by God.
A lot of ethnic and religious changes have taken place over the past three thousand and some years. Yes, the Philistines stayed in their lands in Gaza and a bit north, though I don't know that they ever reached as far north as Tyre or the Golan. Tyre was Phoenician, and the Golan Heights were probably Aramaean, related to Damascus and inland Syria. The Philistines may have originally been Cretans, or settlers in Crete, who returned or invaded the area during the Late Bronze Age collapse, around 1200 BC. They were a strong, warrior people who fought with the Israelites long after the time of Joshua, and dominated them during the period of Eli and Samuel. Saul fought with them, and David mostly beat them down, though they kept their cities along the coast. They stayed their own people at least down to the time that the Romans took over, and the Romans called the whole area "Palestine" after the Philistines, right next to Egypt on the coast, with whom they were most closely in touch.
Under the Romans, after the time of Jesus, the Judeo-Israelite peoples of Judea revolted a couple of times, were crushed, and had a lot of their leading classes deported. These became the nucleus of the later Jewish people, who lived as cosmopolitan diaspora people from then on, and whose numbers were certainly augmented by converts from the peoples they lived among. The people who were left remained Jews for a while, but many eventually converted to Christianity. Later, in the 630s AD, they were conquered along with the rest of the Middle East by the Arabs, who had just been converted to Islam by Muhammad. Over the following centuries, most of them converted to Islam as well, and adopted the dominant Arabic language.
This was still the situation in the early twentieth century. "Palestine" was the region of the Middle East that roughly corresponded to the area of ancient and modern Israel, including the old Philistine region. Its people were Middle Eastern, spoke Arabic, and were mostly Muslim, some Christian, and a few Jewish. They were probably mainly the descendants of the ancient Canaanites and Israelites, who had always lived in that land.
Meanwhile, in Europe, a Jewish nationalist movement arose, called Zionism. The Zionists, speaking for a 2000-year-old diaspora people who were largely European in descent at this time, argued that the Jews should have a physical country of their own, and that that country should be Palestine, the scene of the ancient Israel of their heroic religious past.
After the Second World War, millions of Jews were left displaced, lost, and traumatized. The Zionists organized many of these to move to Palestine and settle there. They had leverage with the dominant Western powers plus war-fighting experience, and were able to beat the Palestinians and the Arab powers that supported them and establish the country of Israel as a Jewish state.
The Palestinians were mostly pushed off their lands into refugee camps, and into the Gaza Strip. The people of Gaza are not just the descendants of the ancient Philistines, but people who were driven off their ancestral lands from all over Palestine/Israel. The rapid or gradual uprooting and dispossession of Palestinians from their land to give to immigrant Jews has been ongoing since the beginning of the state of Israel. Since Israel is founded as a Jewish state, non-Jewish Palestinians have no rights there. They can be robbed, arrested, or murdered at will by the Israeli government, which serves the interests of Jewish settlers. This is the "beef."
My understanding is that there are many Arabic citizens of Israel and as such they have the same rights as all other Israeli citizens. Your last two sentences don't make any sense. There are Muslim mosques in Israel. "Palestinian" people live and work freely as citizens in Israel, as I understand it.
Zionism is a desire to return to the land of the Bible that God gave them. I understand that for some this is not a religious statement or a statement of faith. Too bad for them. And perhaps it is comparable to gentiles thinking they are Christians just because they aren't Jewish even though they have no saving faith in Jesus Christ - just something to grab onto. God will sort them out in the end as to who is what according to His standard.
Yes well we don't know do we which god will sort things out. Even more, the occupation and genocide are legal issues not religious ones. And it seems the original problem was political.
Yes, there are some Arabic-speaking, Muslim or Christian Palestinian citizens of Israel who do have rights, so you are right to call me on that. I believe these were incorporated in the early years when Jewish immigrants were taking over the land, could not easily get rid of them all, and wanted to put on a face of liberal tolerance so the Zionists could make exactly that argument. As I recall, they make up about 20% of the Israeli population. The Zionists do not want the non-Jewish population to get much over that.
There may be a difference between town people and country people who work the land. The people who have suffered most from the Zionist project to settle a long-settled land with Jews would be the farmers, because it is the land that is to be made all Jewish. Cities can tolerate a few exotic foreigners and even let them be citizens, because they are loose and rootless, and can be expelled at any time by a change of the rules.
Much of what is pre-1967 Israel has already been ethnically cleansed on the land, with that 20% Palestinian citizen minority left over. It's the occupied West Bank, whose people have suffered gradual dispossession in favor of Jewish settlers ever since 1967, and the Gaza Strip, which is hemmed in and whose people have been shot, bombed, and terrorized with impunity for decades by Israel, whose people have no rights under dominance by the Jewish state.
I believe the Palestinian rights aren't equal to the Israeli rights. so you may want to check that.
Right, thanks. I think the Palestinian citizens of Israel are not recruited/impressed into the Israeli military, as Jewish citizens are. I don't know much about their situation, so I was hoping someone more knowledgeable would chime in here.
I wish I could recall where I saw it - maybe Aaron Mate. But it's ridiculous to talk about Palestinian rights in Israel when it's Israel that violates Palestinian rights by occupying their land - not to mention the killing and destruction.
The west violates laws, murders, and destroys to perpetuate democracy and the rule of law? Really?? How many comments here discuss THAT elephant in the room?
https://www.ruleoflaw.org.au/what-is-the-rule-of-law/
https://www.uscourts.gov/educational-resources/educational-activities/overview-rule-law
https://www.americanbar.org/groups/public_education/resources/rule-of-law/
and my favorite that includes the benefits - judge for yourself - better economy, more peaceful, better educated populace, longer lifespans,
https://worldjusticeproject.org/about-us/overview/what-rule-law
And how many of us here confront our federal, state, and local PUBLIC SERVANTS with THAT contradiction? ['public servants' = what they're supposed to be]
Found it! Craig Mokhiber to Pascal Lottaz on the specific inequities of Palestinian citizens in Israel. Here, https://youtu.be/y6sLz0lrg60?feature=shared
The quote starting at 49.11,
49:11
. . . It's a lie If you are a Palestinian living inside the Green Line
49:18
in Israel you do not have the same rights You live under an apartheid regime uh you have some rights but you
49:24
don't have the same land rights you don't have the same economic rights you don't have the same residency rights you
49:31
don't have the same citizenship Um uh you I mean you don't have the same nationality So you know to
49:37
avoid um uh this problem of apartheid they put your religion in place of where your your nationality is Uh you don't
49:46
have the same marital rights You don't have I mean across the board you're not even second[cl]ass uh citizens You are you
49:52
are an undesirable uh outsider in your own land . . .
Apparently you don't know much about zionism.
https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/487655?journalCode=jr
https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/Documents/Issues/Truth/CallLegacyColonialism/CSO/Al-Haq-Annex-1.pdf
https://www.unz.com/article/israels-biblical-psychopathy/
Thank you