«I do think that vaccines are the best way to prevent anyone, including POC from getting sick.»
Ah the usual "distraction" argument vax vs. novax from the much important issue, the enormous difference on death rates per 100,000 among three groups of countries:
«I do think that vaccines are the best way to prevent anyone, including POC from getting sick.»
Ah the usual "distraction" argument vax vs. novax from the much important issue, the enormous difference on death rates per 100,000 among three groups of countries:
0.53 New Zealand, 0.35 China-mainland, 0.09 Vietnam
The difference is due to more civilized countries using a test-trace-isolate approach, which has not been adopted in the USA and other "Washington Consensus" countries because it is deemed "collectivist", but has prevented a lot of sickness and death and avoided a lot of job losses:
«While the number of UK deaths has entered the hundreds of thousands, New Zealand has recorded only 25 deaths from Covid-19 so far. Taiwan has recorded seven, Australia 909, Finland 655, Norway 550 and Singapore 29. These countries have largely returned to normal daily life. [...]
Countries that managed to effectively contain Sars-CoV-2 implemented screenings of new arrivals and 14-day quarantines for those entering the country. [...]
The second fatal flaw in the UK’s response happened on 12 March, when the government made the fatal decision to stop community testing, abandoning its line of sight over who had the virus and where it was spreading. Community testing is absolutely vital for controlling the virus. This was later resumed, but England outsourced testing and tracing to private firms instead of using local public health capacity.
Isolation – a key part of the test, trace, isolate response – was only ever an afterthought, and there has been little support for people who would struggle to stop working for 14 days. Even now, the majority of people have been refused a discretionary self-isolation payment, while statutory sick pay is a paltry £95.85 a week. By contrast, Finland and Norway offer 100% and 80% of income to people who are self-isolating. The result of the UK’s inadequate support is that many who have tested positive have ended up going into work and infecting others.»
As to "disparate impact" the lockdown+vaccinations approach of the anti-collectivism governments of the USA, UK, etc. has caused a lot more deaths, a lot more sickness, a lot more economic ruin among poor people, many of them black and brown, than test-trace-isolate, but all we hear is vax-novax arguments as a distraction.
Unfortunately, you are right. I chose vaccination because we will never do the socially responsible thing, no profit there. Anyway I will be trying out Professor Reed's podcast, always good to hear an intelligent thoughtful conversation.
But vaccination is the end game anyhow: test-trace-isolate as an alternative to half-baked general permanent lockdowns "just" minimizes the impact in both health and economic damage while developing the vaccines, which are the endgame. But minimizing the damage and giving a lot more time to develop and test vaccines is a big thing.
“the socially responsible thing, no profit there.”
It is not just about “no profit”, it is mostly about the propaganda impact: Reagan said “The nine most terrifying words in the English language are ‘I'm from the government, and I'm here to help’”, and therefore a government funded and organized public health project is "collectivist" and ideologically incompatible with neoliberalism. The the huge marketing campaign and profit opportunity for Pfizer and AstraZeneca and Moderna and J&J are also very welcome of course. A supporting quote about the Prime Minister of England:
But of course it did: there are two ways to do it, test a few people potentially infected and do a lot of tracing, or test a lot of people and do little tracing.
Different countries have adopted different mixes of test and trace, with different results: the japanese approach of very selective testing was not that successful because it had death rates "only" 16 times lower than the USA, instead of 100 times lower like countries with a better approach.
«Proximity to Chinese COVID viruses over time and residual immunity is regarded as one possible explanation for the low rates among Asian nations with took radically different approaches.»
Are Finland, Norway, Australia, New Zealand, Iceland all asian nations with proximity to China or rather "collectivist" dictatoships? :-)
«South Korea and Taiwan locked down and tested and traced»
Again, there are variants in the test-trace-isolate approach: some countries do an initial hard lockdown to slow down infections while preparing a test-trace-isolate system, some had it ready already, so for example China-Taiwan did not have a hard short lockdown like China-mainland, and did not do mass testing, only selective tracing:
«Authorities activated the island's Central Epidemic Command Center, which was set up in the wake of SARS, to coordinate between different ministries. The government also ramped up face mask and protective equipment production to make sure there would be a steady supply of PPE. The government also invested in mass testing and quick and effective contact tracing. Former Taiwanese Vice President Chen Chien-jen, who is an epidemiologist by training, said lockdowns are not ideal. Chen also said that the type of mass-testing schemes undertaken in mainland China, where millions of people are screened when a handful of cases are detected, are also unnecessary. "Very careful contact tracing, and very stringent quarantines of close contacts are the best way to contain Covid-19," he said.»
«What did this island of 23 million people do right? It has had 553 confirmed cases, with only seven deaths. Experts say closing borders early and tightly regulating travel have gone a long way toward fighting the virus. Other factors include rigorous contact tracing, technology-enforced quarantine and widespread mask wearing. [...] Also, as it’s not easy to make people stay in quarantine, Taiwan has taken steps to provide meal and grocery delivery and even some friendly contact via Line Bot, a robot that texts and chats. There is also punishment -- those who break quarantine face fines of up to NT$1million ($35,000). [...] Taiwan has world-class contact tracing -- on average, linking 20 to 30 contacts to each confirmed case. In extreme situations, such as that of a worker at a Taipei City hostess club who contracted the virus, the government tracked down as many as 150 contacts. Then, all contacts must undergo a 14-day home quarantine, even if they test negative.»
The approach the government of China-Taiwan to test-trace-isolate was particularly successful, but the different approach to test-trace-isolate of China-mainland was also successful, even if less so.
Both were *a lot* more successful than the reaganista lockdown approach of the USA, UK, France, Italy, etc.
«I do think that vaccines are the best way to prevent anyone, including POC from getting sick.»
Ah the usual "distraction" argument vax vs. novax from the much important issue, the enormous difference on death rates per 100,000 among three groups of countries:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic_death_rates_by_country#Table_of_death_rates
211.70 Italy, 197.74 Poland, 192.25 United Kingdom,
184.48 United States, 166.01 France, 142.25 Sweden,
127.05 Switzerland, 109.95 Germany
17.63 Finland, 14.85 Norway, 11.92 Cuba, 11.72 Japan,
8.03 Iceland
3.20 Thailand, 2.89 China-Taiwan, 0.63 Singapore,
0.53 New Zealand, 0.35 China-mainland, 0.09 Vietnam
The difference is due to more civilized countries using a test-trace-isolate approach, which has not been adopted in the USA and other "Washington Consensus" countries because it is deemed "collectivist", but has prevented a lot of sickness and death and avoided a lot of job losses:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jan/27/five-ways-the-government-could-have-avoided-100000-covid-deaths
«While the number of UK deaths has entered the hundreds of thousands, New Zealand has recorded only 25 deaths from Covid-19 so far. Taiwan has recorded seven, Australia 909, Finland 655, Norway 550 and Singapore 29. These countries have largely returned to normal daily life. [...]
Countries that managed to effectively contain Sars-CoV-2 implemented screenings of new arrivals and 14-day quarantines for those entering the country. [...]
The second fatal flaw in the UK’s response happened on 12 March, when the government made the fatal decision to stop community testing, abandoning its line of sight over who had the virus and where it was spreading. Community testing is absolutely vital for controlling the virus. This was later resumed, but England outsourced testing and tracing to private firms instead of using local public health capacity.
Isolation – a key part of the test, trace, isolate response – was only ever an afterthought, and there has been little support for people who would struggle to stop working for 14 days. Even now, the majority of people have been refused a discretionary self-isolation payment, while statutory sick pay is a paltry £95.85 a week. By contrast, Finland and Norway offer 100% and 80% of income to people who are self-isolating. The result of the UK’s inadequate support is that many who have tested positive have ended up going into work and infecting others.»
As to "disparate impact" the lockdown+vaccinations approach of the anti-collectivism governments of the USA, UK, etc. has caused a lot more deaths, a lot more sickness, a lot more economic ruin among poor people, many of them black and brown, than test-trace-isolate, but all we hear is vax-novax arguments as a distraction.
Unfortunately, you are right. I chose vaccination because we will never do the socially responsible thing, no profit there. Anyway I will be trying out Professor Reed's podcast, always good to hear an intelligent thoughtful conversation.
“I chose vaccination because we will never do”
But vaccination is the end game anyhow: test-trace-isolate as an alternative to half-baked general permanent lockdowns "just" minimizes the impact in both health and economic damage while developing the vaccines, which are the endgame. But minimizing the damage and giving a lot more time to develop and test vaccines is a big thing.
“the socially responsible thing, no profit there.”
It is not just about “no profit”, it is mostly about the propaganda impact: Reagan said “The nine most terrifying words in the English language are ‘I'm from the government, and I'm here to help’”, and therefore a government funded and organized public health project is "collectivist" and ideologically incompatible with neoliberalism. The the huge marketing campaign and profit opportunity for Pfizer and AstraZeneca and Moderna and J&J are also very welcome of course. A supporting quote about the Prime Minister of England:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/mar/23/greed-and-capitalism-behind-jab-success-boris-johnson-tells-mps
«The UK’s successful vaccine rollout was thanks to “greed” and “capitalism”, Boris Johnson has told Conservative MPs»
«Japan did not "test and trace."»
But of course it did: there are two ways to do it, test a few people potentially infected and do a lot of tracing, or test a lot of people and do little tracing.
Different countries have adopted different mixes of test and trace, with different results: the japanese approach of very selective testing was not that successful because it had death rates "only" 16 times lower than the USA, instead of 100 times lower like countries with a better approach.
«Proximity to Chinese COVID viruses over time and residual immunity is regarded as one possible explanation for the low rates among Asian nations with took radically different approaches.»
Are Finland, Norway, Australia, New Zealand, Iceland all asian nations with proximity to China or rather "collectivist" dictatoships? :-)
«South Korea and Taiwan locked down and tested and traced»
Again, there are variants in the test-trace-isolate approach: some countries do an initial hard lockdown to slow down infections while preparing a test-trace-isolate system, some had it ready already, so for example China-Taiwan did not have a hard short lockdown like China-mainland, and did not do mass testing, only selective tracing:
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/10/29/asia/taiwan-covid-19-intl-hnk/
«Authorities activated the island's Central Epidemic Command Center, which was set up in the wake of SARS, to coordinate between different ministries. The government also ramped up face mask and protective equipment production to make sure there would be a steady supply of PPE. The government also invested in mass testing and quick and effective contact tracing. Former Taiwanese Vice President Chen Chien-jen, who is an epidemiologist by training, said lockdowns are not ideal. Chen also said that the type of mass-testing schemes undertaken in mainland China, where millions of people are screened when a handful of cases are detected, are also unnecessary. "Very careful contact tracing, and very stringent quarantines of close contacts are the best way to contain Covid-19," he said.»
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-10-29/this-place-hasn-t-had-a-local-coronavirus-case-in-200-days
«What did this island of 23 million people do right? It has had 553 confirmed cases, with only seven deaths. Experts say closing borders early and tightly regulating travel have gone a long way toward fighting the virus. Other factors include rigorous contact tracing, technology-enforced quarantine and widespread mask wearing. [...] Also, as it’s not easy to make people stay in quarantine, Taiwan has taken steps to provide meal and grocery delivery and even some friendly contact via Line Bot, a robot that texts and chats. There is also punishment -- those who break quarantine face fines of up to NT$1million ($35,000). [...] Taiwan has world-class contact tracing -- on average, linking 20 to 30 contacts to each confirmed case. In extreme situations, such as that of a worker at a Taipei City hostess club who contracted the virus, the government tracked down as many as 150 contacts. Then, all contacts must undergo a 14-day home quarantine, even if they test negative.»
The approach the government of China-Taiwan to test-trace-isolate was particularly successful, but the different approach to test-trace-isolate of China-mainland was also successful, even if less so.
Both were *a lot* more successful than the reaganista lockdown approach of the USA, UK, France, Italy, etc.