I am still trying to sift through the legacy of COVID. The real legacy isn't the virus itself but the reaction to it, which has exposed enormous fault lines in just about everything in our societies in the modern west. What stands out as perhaps most troubling is the clear, quasi totalitarian diktat on what could or could not be discussed.

The origin of the virus - for all of 2020 anyone suggesting that it could have escaped from a lab rather than naturally occurring was immediately branded a crackpot, and not just a crackpot, but a dangerous and ignorant racist too. A common-sense interpretation of the events of early 2020 clearly pointed towards a lab escape as a major and realistic origin for COVID-19, which is backed up by the Chinese government's behaviors and actions in Wuhan at the time. Common sense isn't always right, but both the establishment governments worldwide and the "scientific community" immediately shut down any discussions on a lab escape despite enormous conflict of interests, and even outright lied about it, as Nicholas Wade, former science writer for the NYT, so brilliantly exposed in his long article on COVID on Medium: https://nicholaswade.medium.com/origin-of-covid-following-the-clues-6f03564c038. Now we know there's a staggering conflict of interest among many scientists going right up to Fauci himself. Why are they still being excused and why aren't the mainstream media asking them awkward questions about their roles in allowing the virus to emerge in the first place?

Then we have the actual virus itself. Why are we still wearing masks outside? Not a single covid transmission has been traced back to an outdoor transmission between two people. Not one. We've known since pretty early on that COVID transmits through prolonged exposure in closed spaces. In short, you don't get COVID from walking past someone on the sidewalk. That's the scientific fact for you. But we've created a world where solitary schoolchildren (who are the least affected by COVID) wear masks while walking alone through an empty neighborhood. We've created a world where diners can dine in small tables but their waiters have to wear masks. Where's the logic in this?

Then we have the hypocrisies in calling out all references to Covid as the Wuhan or Chinese flu as racist and bigoted, yet the same people have no problems referring to the UK variant or South African variant or Indian variant....

The list goes on. The real problem is that we live in an age of experts, and COVID was created and allowed to escape by the experts, and it was covered up by the experts, and yet we have people still divided between those who shout to everyone we must listen to the experts and do what they tell us and who get incensed when someone simply asks how we know the experts are right (especially as time goes on, it's increasingly clear they are not), versus those who actually dare say, wait, hold on, there's a lot of problems with this policy or that policy, this doesn't make sense, why aren't we allowed to ask what happened in Wuhan and so forth.

Sometimes I wonder if we're starting to witness the beginning of the collapse of the expert class as a moral and political force. This certainly extends to all facets of modern America, in politics, media, culture for a variety of reasons. Contrary to what some people would like, this isn't necessarily a good thing. But the experts also may have brought it upon themselves in their blindness and arrogance of their assumptions.

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I feel like everything with Covid had to be dumbed down for general consumption.

Last summer I got into an argument when I thought people should be able to go to beaches. Based on everything I read, beaches were not risky. What would be risky would be people from multiple households driving to the beach, or getting together indoors after the beach. However, why demonize being at the beach. I was almost universally chastised with "why take the chance?" or "you are risking the life of [insert at-risk relative]".

There was no allowance for nuanced thinking or analyzing specific activities done a specific way. It was either a blanket "this is ok" or "this is not OK"

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I have been doing a lot of research on Covid-19 for quite a while now, posting updates to either my blog of facebook. I posted a link to a bloomberg article which noted that the Thai government had approved the use of andrographis (a potent antiviral and antiinflammatory herb) for the treatment of covid-19 during its early stages. Thai studies had found that it shortened duration of the infection and decreased the chances of severity. Facebook removed the post within 24 hours and said that any further infractions could lead to the suspension of my account. I found this particularly oppressive as all i had done was linked to an article to a relatively prominent news site and the article merely discussed the outcomes of Thai scientific studies and what the Thai government had decided to do in response. Among other things, it reduced costs, relieved overcrowding at the hospitals, and actually seemed to work well in the real world.

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Great article. I wish I could encapsulate my thoughts as efficiently as Mr. Hopkins.

I remember a belligerent post on the neighborhood app Nextdoor for Santa Monica, CA that stuck with me. To paraphrase:

‘To the runner who ran past my open car door without a mask - HOW DARE YOU! You endangered our lives! My children in the backseat were frightened. May you get what you deserve, sir!’

^Note that at the time it was posted the LA mayor said it was allowed for people to exercise outdoors without a mask (later changed to must wear at all times).

The LA city officials following ‘science’ closed our beaches. Surfers were given $1000 tickets. Bulldozers filled volleyball courts and skateboard parks full of sand. They thought it better to have the working poor living with multi-generations in small apartments to cram together indoors than use the beaches. Real geniuses...

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Hard to “be funny” in the midst of fascist totalitarian brutality. At least the “ass clown” stood up to the corrupt MSM and tried to fight the deep state. Anyone they hate that much I will gladly defend.

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No matter where one falls on this debate regarding how the pandemic was handled, my real concern has been the effect on potential future pandemics that carry actual substantial danger (my personal bias is showing there).

The tale of the boy who cried wolf comes to mind a lot.

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It's always impressive how Matt gets criticism like "what happened to you" from BlueMaga types. but will also get something like "I was with you until you said you were no fan of Trump.."

This guy in the interview is clearly a leftist based on his criticism of global Capitalism, I'm guess he read the Shock Doctrine by Naomi Klein form his "shock and awe" comment. I love watching peoples heads explode when they can't fit an essay neatly into their blue or red headspace.

Keep breaking the Matrix Matt.

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The worst part, to me, is they've now conditioned the masses to accept this as necessary when so deemed by the state. The mechanisms are still in place to spring to action for the next "crisis," and 80% of the population of the entire globe will do exactly as directed. This includes turning in family, friends and neighbors for whatever is sold by governments as dangerous. I imagine the next "crisis" is, at least, on the horizon. I think it will be climate change, personally. Those activists have been itching for re-education camps and forced behavior for years. Half the population believes the world is ending in around 10 years (contrary to any actual science) and would be more than happy to do whatever is necessary to the other half to preserve their "survival." All that is now needed is to plug this crisis in and activate the machine.

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The worst part about all of this is that the "party of science" is still pretending that it's March 2020, and not actually following the real-world data we've been collecting over the last year+. And they demand that the rest of us stay as scared as they are.

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Matt, thank you for publishing the conversation with CJ Hopkins.

The pharmaceutical industry's $9.6 billion advertising budget gives drug companies much control over corporate news and television outlets. 50, 60, up to 70 percent of corporate media's news divisions' revenues comes from pharma, as I understand it. Whatever the percentage, one need only turn on the nightly news to see where pharma puts its money night after night after night. Yet pharma's capture of these corporate news divisions and how this might shape their covid fear campaigns is rarely mentioned by independent journalists in their critiques of corporate media. Why?

The same can be said for pharma's capture of the NIH, CDC, etc.

The covid operation has been ongoing for over a year so it should be stating the obvious that the CDC is sitting on the other end of the counter from an independent, tax funded government agency whose sole purpose is to protect public health.

Much of the CDC's funding comes from a private 501c3 organization called the CDC Foundation which is largely funded by big pharma and Bill Gates who also fund the World Health Organization. Vaccine investor Gates, via the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation and Gavi combined, is the largest WHO funder.

These agencies are captive agencies.

Discovering this information doesn't take hot shot investigative reporters. It's right there on the agency web sites for everyone to see.

In a further conflict of interest, the CDC and NIH own patents on injectables.

Please see the list of the CDC's corporate funders on their web site.

CDC: Our Partners: Corporations/CDC Foundation


CDC Members Own More Than 50 Patents Connected to Vaccinations


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Thanks for this. I don't feel so alone anymore.

I posted a link to the following article about a covid treatment that is saving lives in more than 20 countries - now India too - and was censored by FB. It was blocked and I was warned with a 'strike one.' It didn't meet their standards. I didn't appeal. It's all about fear, isn't it? https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2021/05/india-just-became-latest-country-to-approve-use-of-ivermectin-to-treat-covid-19.html. Nakedcapitalism has been my daily read for years - ever since Bill Moyers interviewed the NC blogger on his show on PBS (before they dumped him - he was straying too far outside their overton manufacturing consent window I think). The commentariat on NC is also very informed.

I have chosen, so far, NOT to be a 'subject' in this huge experiment where all these vaccines have only been approved for EUA. Frankly I don't trust "GlobalCap" in BIGPHARMA and the profit driven sick care insurance in this country that is supposed to pass for health care and that doesn't even cover all Americans and even many who have this 'insurance' can't afford to use it. The conflicting information on this is truly frightening. I feel I am surrounded by brainwashed, very intolerant people no longer able to discuss different points of view on anything relating to covid.

So thanks again for this interview. I had never read him.

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The German journalist Paul Schreyer has done work on how the Covid Response was prepared - down to a tee - in regular post 911 "bioterrorism" drills. These events were attended by a good number of the usual suspects(powerful Western politicians and state officials, big media wigs, scientists) and one important focus was how to streamline the public perception of what was going on, what the nature of the threat is (politics of fear) and how to get the public to accept the loss of fundamental democratic rights. I believe they started in 2006. Drills included bioterror attacks but also coronavirus epidemics. In Europe the rapidity with which political parties accepted various states of emergency (meaning that Parliaments no longer had a say in Cobid Policies- even left wing parties who had criticized the exact same mentality war on terror policies) was stunning to me. Critics were basically shouted down. Schreyer's work on these drills provides a first entry into this state of affairs, I think. (From the War on Drugs to the War on Terror to now this?)

Another important angle is the politization of science - a good article is: https://unherd.com/2021/05/how-science-has-been-corrupted/ . I am glad you are picking this up, Matt.

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I was hoping you and Greenwald would start flirting w/ the Covid 3rd rail. Kudos to both you warriors.

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I am a microbiologist who made a vaccine for COVID-19 in February 2020. I have examined the theories, and the sequences for COVID-19 in detail. I also have papers on economics and publications on terrorism.

- A MUCH better question is, why weren't Western governments rolling out vaccines immediately?! The risk is virtually zero, and if there's the slightest issue with one, it can be stopped. EVERY vaccine that got approved is IDENTICAL to the vaccine designed and manufactured in January of 2020. NOTHING was learned by the delay - just bureaucratic red tape. We know far too much about vaccines now. And even the biggest mistakes in vaccination, would have prevented millions of deaths and avoided any need for lockdown.

The lockdown is insane. We should have 10 vaccines rolling out by end of March to medical personnel, and to anyone else who wanted it. Period.

But, the lockdown was a weapon against Trump. Lockdown targeted Trump voters, who were largely working class. And forcing the vaccines to jump through all the hoops was ALSO a weapon against Trump. He was such an ass clown (I totally agree with that) and so spineless, that he didn't use his executive authority to bypass it. Democrats panicked just before the election when Trump tried to unlock the release of vaccines before the election.

- Anyone who thinks "anti-vaxxer" isn't a real thing is an idiot. Sorry, @taibbi. If you swallow that whole, so are you. Vaccines have been demonized since the turn of the 20th century. It was the Back to Eden book by Jethro Kloss, who was a rabid Seventh Day Adventist that was the source of it. He didn't change his mind after losing a child to vaccine preventable disease. Jethro's book became a cult classic of the 60's flower children going back to the land.

The ideology of anti-vaxxers is this: Your child is perfect, and if they are sick this is due to lack of clean, healthy foods, and clean healthy environment. This ideology appeals to the maternal instincts of mothers, because it confirms to them that their child is perfect. It also matches with maternal instincts to nurture. So, if anything goes wrong with their child's health, it is not because that child was exposed to a disease, it is because of a failure of perfecting nutrition and environment.

Combine that ideology with the fact that needles are scary, they make babies cry, and seeing her darling get a needle stick and cry is disturbing. Amalgamate that with ignorance and the batshit crazy lies that are spewed out about vaccines, we have a guy like Hopkins actually thinking that there is something to terribly serious to worry about that requires the rigorous testing in a global emergency like this.


Matt? WTAF is WRONG with you here?!

See my journal editorial from last year.

Brian P. Hanley , Steve Keen , and George Church

A Call for a Three-Tiered Pandemic Public Health Strategy in Context of SARS-CoV-2.


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One under-discussed symptom of this whole COVID era is how online everyone has become. When everything in your neighborhood is closed and there's really not a whole lot to do outside of your home, I think a lot of people have replaced a staggering portion of their social lives with social media, browsing, falling into weird internet rabbit holes, getting deeply entrenched in their ideologies etc. Close friends of mine have increasingly weirder opinions I'm positive they've absorbed from some YouTube asshole or some irony-poisoned twitter nihilist. It blows!

Hoping that local restaurants seating people inside, bars opening up, vacations becoming feasible again, etc. will knock us out of some of this. This has been a boring, stupid, and depressing year plus.

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Really really good interview Matt! As a conservative Republican who voted for Trump twice, I truly respect interviews with guys from the left who can articulate their points like CJ Hopkins. He made some great points. We are in the "new" normal, not sure how this all ends.

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