Studies show vaccines increased infectivity and no reason why it went crazy in Israel and UK if they worked properly. Not conclusive that just because it initially spread there among unvaccinated that it didn't mutate from vaccinated individuals who were there or visiting. Natural immunity people aren't testing positive mostly. Way to…
Studies show vaccines increased infectivity and no reason why it went crazy in Israel and UK if they worked properly. Not conclusive that just because it initially spread there among unvaccinated that it didn't mutate from vaccinated individuals who were there or visiting. Natural immunity people aren't testing positive mostly. Way too little known. And we KNOW that vaccines in a pandemic cut down on the number of mutations and the competition, etc.
What studies? Mutate from vaccinated individuals but not from unvaccinated ones - how does that work? Sorta left out the influence of the Delta variant, eh - which arose in India where vaccination rate is quite low
No, they still do not know that it didn't originate from vaccinated people there and spread to the unvaccinated. I'll bet even YOU can mastermind your way around that, and some of the biggest surges are in vaccinated countries which shouldn't be the case. Read the NEw York Times article. Even they admit the vaccines could have caused Delta. But then YOU know everything.
Having trouble finding the New York Times one, must have saved it somwhere weird. Here's an NPR one. We all know a lot of scenarios are possible or we do if we bother to research, but "they" still think vaccinating everyone is the right thing to do. Of course not everyone. Lots of scientists disagree. You believe what you want to.
I just happen to think the scientists make sense who didn't want to make vaccines for a a virus with such a high survival rate and take a chance on forcing it more lethal. Natural mutations have more competition but vaccines force the virus to pick more contagious ones, sometimes more deadly ones as is the case with the Marek Effect. Which causes more and more problems. That is what rings true in my gut. I do not give advice on taking it or not taking it. I just have reservations and will watch out this plays out. Right now, the risks are still pretty low for healthy, thin people and I have some confidence in improved therapeutics.
I'll be happy to find it but here is the Marek effect stuff. PBS did a special on it. Everybody knows vaccines can cause mutations and deadlier disease. They just won't tell anyone now. I can find them all day for you. This was common knowledge and discussed until they started pushing this vaccine. So we don't really know if what is happening from this leaky vaccine is ADE, or the Marek Effect, or nothing too terrible. But it is all possible.
" ... researchers concerned with vaccine-driven evolution stress that the phenomenon is not in any way an argument against vaccination or its value; it’s just a consequence that needs to be considered, and one that can potentially be avoided. By thinking through how a pathogen population might respond to a vaccine, scientists can potentially make tweaks before it happens. They might even be able to design vaccines that encourage pathogens to become less dangerous over time."
The problem is "leaky vaccines" - so the answer is better vaccines, folks are working on a pan corona virus vaccine - in the meantime, don't let the better be the enemy of the good ...
Yes, I know the party line well. It's a big risk to take with drugs that have not been tested long term --not to mention pushing everyone to do it. And the answer just might be natural immunity for a virus with that high a survival rate.
Well, here is the problem with that. We know more vaccinated people are dying in UK and Israel, and it's hard to tell what's right. How they are manipulating that data which they all admit is incomplete or erroneous. Here, they are calling people with one vaccine "unvaccinated" without even considering if it might be enhancing infection rates, or perhaps cases of ADE right? How many of those are there? Will you concede that's at least possible? Then the data on illness is skewed as well, even the Atlantic published an article on this. I can't yet make sense if the vaccine is actually making the virus less severe or if it's just increasing infectivity like they say in Japan where they are worrying it is causing mutations. They are saying percentage wise unvaccinated are getting sicker and dying but again, they are counting those with one vaccine in that group. That is grossly incompetent and obfuscating some possible problems. Unlike you, I have not made up my mind forever on this or any vaccine. I at least want to see how the vaccinated fare during the next mutation which leaky vaccines contribute to. But right now I do not trust these people at all. In Iceland and in Israel and in the UK more vaccinated people are dying, just not as high a percentage. They claim. So we'll see. I suggest you not be so sure you are right and can tell others what to do--that's not a sign of critical thinking skills. And they were wrong this vaccine would be sterilizing--you can tell by Fauci's comments they thought it was. So I'llw ait and see.
More vaccinated people are dying - more than what? Oh yeah, "not just as high a percentage", you mumble
All data, anywhere, about anything, is "always incomplete".
Erroneous? by what measure?
How they fare in the next mutation? Which one is that? Considering as how there are always new mutations - you'll be waiting a looong time ...
I never tell others "what to do".
Did they ever claim this vaccine would be "sterilizing"? "You can tell by Fauci's comments ... " Which ones?
"Critical thinking skills" - at least the ones I have any use for, do not result in taking no action until one is absolutely certain - about anything, because one can never be absolutely certain about anything, except as they say, death and taxes ...
Look, YOU do not have to take no action, but you have no right to make someone else take the same action you do! Which is what you seem to be doing here. Nobody is allowed to question or ask questions, right? Also, read the Atlantic article. Even the CDC admits their data isn't perfect. Check the CDC they are counting people who die between shots unvaccinated. That could be vastly inaccurate picture of this situation. And if you aren't telling people what to do why are you mad that I I'm just talking about my concerns. Check it out. Not a single thing I've said is untrue. You seem to think that people shouldn't hear anything conflicting, like even if true, I should not say it and should just trust the powers that be. That is not critical thinking and it also presumes other people can't sift through the true facts and decide what is best for them. WHY would you assume that? Informed consent is what this is about. And you look up and see if anything I'm saying is not at least possible. We alls hould question all this and find acceptable answers.
No kidding. You actually think the New York Times and even FAUCI himself has admitted that the vaccines can cause the virus to mutate and "escape." YOu are really that uninformed? They ALL admit this even if they still think everybody should get vaccinated. Some scientists do not, however.
Let's see - a 1% chance of dying - in a country of 300 million, that's 3 million people - so 3 million is OK with you, unless, maybe, they are your friends or your relatives ...
The infection fatality rate is .23%. It is .05% in those under 50 (per the WHO). As we know from seroprevalence studies, many people have had this virus, had no symptoms, and were never counted as a “case.” IFR is the only appropriate metric to use when the denominator is the entire population, not CFR (case fatality rate). We need to take into account that many in the population are not susceptible to this disease.
Studies show vaccines increased infectivity and no reason why it went crazy in Israel and UK if they worked properly. Not conclusive that just because it initially spread there among unvaccinated that it didn't mutate from vaccinated individuals who were there or visiting. Natural immunity people aren't testing positive mostly. Way too little known. And we KNOW that vaccines in a pandemic cut down on the number of mutations and the competition, etc.
What studies? Mutate from vaccinated individuals but not from unvaccinated ones - how does that work? Sorta left out the influence of the Delta variant, eh - which arose in India where vaccination rate is quite low
No, they still do not know that it didn't originate from vaccinated people there and spread to the unvaccinated. I'll bet even YOU can mastermind your way around that, and some of the biggest surges are in vaccinated countries which shouldn't be the case. Read the NEw York Times article. Even they admit the vaccines could have caused Delta. But then YOU know everything.
Oh please - give me the citation for THAT NYT article!
Having trouble finding the New York Times one, must have saved it somwhere weird. Here's an NPR one. We all know a lot of scenarios are possible or we do if we bother to research, but "they" still think vaccinating everyone is the right thing to do. Of course not everyone. Lots of scientists disagree. You believe what you want to.
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/02/10/965940914/covid-19-vaccines-could-add-fuel-to-evolution-of-more-coronavirus-mutations
I just happen to think the scientists make sense who didn't want to make vaccines for a a virus with such a high survival rate and take a chance on forcing it more lethal. Natural mutations have more competition but vaccines force the virus to pick more contagious ones, sometimes more deadly ones as is the case with the Marek Effect. Which causes more and more problems. That is what rings true in my gut. I do not give advice on taking it or not taking it. I just have reservations and will watch out this plays out. Right now, the risks are still pretty low for healthy, thin people and I have some confidence in improved therapeutics.
"Viruses also evolve, but the process is different and the result is usually much less severe when it comes to vaccines.
So far, the concerning coronavirus strains have appeared in individuals who have not been vaccinated."
I'll be happy to find it but here is the Marek effect stuff. PBS did a special on it. Everybody knows vaccines can cause mutations and deadlier disease. They just won't tell anyone now. I can find them all day for you. This was common knowledge and discussed until they started pushing this vaccine. So we don't really know if what is happening from this leaky vaccine is ADE, or the Marek Effect, or nothing too terrible. But it is all possible.
https://www.quantamagazine.org/how-vaccines-can-drive-pathogens-to-evolve-20180510/
" ... researchers concerned with vaccine-driven evolution stress that the phenomenon is not in any way an argument against vaccination or its value; it’s just a consequence that needs to be considered, and one that can potentially be avoided. By thinking through how a pathogen population might respond to a vaccine, scientists can potentially make tweaks before it happens. They might even be able to design vaccines that encourage pathogens to become less dangerous over time."
The problem is "leaky vaccines" - so the answer is better vaccines, folks are working on a pan corona virus vaccine - in the meantime, don't let the better be the enemy of the good ...
Yes, I know the party line well. It's a big risk to take with drugs that have not been tested long term --not to mention pushing everyone to do it. And the answer just might be natural immunity for a virus with that high a survival rate.
Again - compare the survival rates with and without the vaccine ...
Well, here is the problem with that. We know more vaccinated people are dying in UK and Israel, and it's hard to tell what's right. How they are manipulating that data which they all admit is incomplete or erroneous. Here, they are calling people with one vaccine "unvaccinated" without even considering if it might be enhancing infection rates, or perhaps cases of ADE right? How many of those are there? Will you concede that's at least possible? Then the data on illness is skewed as well, even the Atlantic published an article on this. I can't yet make sense if the vaccine is actually making the virus less severe or if it's just increasing infectivity like they say in Japan where they are worrying it is causing mutations. They are saying percentage wise unvaccinated are getting sicker and dying but again, they are counting those with one vaccine in that group. That is grossly incompetent and obfuscating some possible problems. Unlike you, I have not made up my mind forever on this or any vaccine. I at least want to see how the vaccinated fare during the next mutation which leaky vaccines contribute to. But right now I do not trust these people at all. In Iceland and in Israel and in the UK more vaccinated people are dying, just not as high a percentage. They claim. So we'll see. I suggest you not be so sure you are right and can tell others what to do--that's not a sign of critical thinking skills. And they were wrong this vaccine would be sterilizing--you can tell by Fauci's comments they thought it was. So I'llw ait and see.
More vaccinated people are dying - more than what? Oh yeah, "not just as high a percentage", you mumble
All data, anywhere, about anything, is "always incomplete".
Erroneous? by what measure?
How they fare in the next mutation? Which one is that? Considering as how there are always new mutations - you'll be waiting a looong time ...
I never tell others "what to do".
Did they ever claim this vaccine would be "sterilizing"? "You can tell by Fauci's comments ... " Which ones?
"Critical thinking skills" - at least the ones I have any use for, do not result in taking no action until one is absolutely certain - about anything, because one can never be absolutely certain about anything, except as they say, death and taxes ...
Look, YOU do not have to take no action, but you have no right to make someone else take the same action you do! Which is what you seem to be doing here. Nobody is allowed to question or ask questions, right? Also, read the Atlantic article. Even the CDC admits their data isn't perfect. Check the CDC they are counting people who die between shots unvaccinated. That could be vastly inaccurate picture of this situation. And if you aren't telling people what to do why are you mad that I I'm just talking about my concerns. Check it out. Not a single thing I've said is untrue. You seem to think that people shouldn't hear anything conflicting, like even if true, I should not say it and should just trust the powers that be. That is not critical thinking and it also presumes other people can't sift through the true facts and decide what is best for them. WHY would you assume that? Informed consent is what this is about. And you look up and see if anything I'm saying is not at least possible. We alls hould question all this and find acceptable answers.
Here is CNN's position while they wanted to nail Trump: I have to look for the Times interview, but trust me, it's there:
https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/01/health/eua-coronavirus-vaccine-history/index.html
No kidding. You actually think the New York Times and even FAUCI himself has admitted that the vaccines can cause the virus to mutate and "escape." YOu are really that uninformed? They ALL admit this even if they still think everybody should get vaccinated. Some scientists do not, however.
Let's see - a 1% chance of dying - in a country of 300 million, that's 3 million people - so 3 million is OK with you, unless, maybe, they are your friends or your relatives ...
How high a % are you willing to think is OK?
The infection fatality rate is .23%. It is .05% in those under 50 (per the WHO). As we know from seroprevalence studies, many people have had this virus, had no symptoms, and were never counted as a “case.” IFR is the only appropriate metric to use when the denominator is the entire population, not CFR (case fatality rate). We need to take into account that many in the population are not susceptible to this disease.