No doubt, but the other solutions are pretty ugly also. You end up taking away someone else's water in most cases, and they aren't going to be happy or tolerate it well. It's the point of the article, in fact.
It may well be that the water cost makes agriculture infeasible in certain regions. That is an economic decision and should serve to control things at some level. Urban desalination is another issue - you're not going to bulldoze a city because it's hard to get water to it. Usually.
Can’t disagree with anything you said. By the way, Vlacav Smil has written some informative and factual books on energy, especially so-called alternative energy, to which he’s sympathetic. Check that out, if you haven’t already.
Apparently we have wasted over $100B on high speed rail to nowhere. How about we transfer some of the future funding for that boondoggle to building a pipeline from the Mississippi River over the Rockies to deliver water to the Colorado River dam system during flood times. Plenty of storage capacity in the Powell and Lake Mead areas and flood abatement for the Mississippi. Win-Win.
Projects like that (redirecting river water) are super expensive. The Soviets had a plan to redirect water from the Ob river system that runs into the Arctic Ocean and refill the Aral Sea, which was drained dry by agriculture, primarily. The estimated cost was astronomical and as a result it never happened. I'm all for a cool project that moves water from point A to point B, but i'd have to see a plan that made sense and didn't cause other problems over the longer term.
I didn’t say it would be cheap, but Discover Magazine ran a story about it some years ago. Also consider the savings from the ability to divert flood water from the Mississippi River region in years with heavy rain or suddenly warm springs that cause dangerous snow melts. I too would need to see a plan.
Expecting other countries to become first world countries is a little unrealistic. Ag activities stay low-tech until governmental force is applied to change them. A country that teeters on the edge of being ruled by narcoterrorists is not going to have the bandwidth to change much.
Instead of $400 billion to Ukriane, the US government could have funded several desalinization plants along the West coast, thus reducing water use in California that could be directed to other southern border states.
Fresh water isn't a supply challenge; it is a logistics issue and storage challenge. These are challenges that we already have solutions for, but for the idiot technocrats in charge that cannot get anything done.
These water disputes have been ongoing since, well, 1944. Mexico has a long history of failing to honor their commitments under previous treaties. I suspect that their current promises are just as meaningless. After all, this is the same Mexican government that allowed (through massive political corruption) drug cartels to become the de facto rulers of much of the country.
If you look at a map, you will see a river (Rio Conchos) which flows into the Rio Grande (Rio Bravo on Mexican side of the border). This is at Presidio, Texas and Ojinaga, Mexico. Amistad and Falcones reservoir have been low level for years, so ordering release of water from those reservoirs doesn't really address the problem. You can't release water that's not there, or at least is not being replenished. At the intersection of the river at Ojinaga, most of the water comes from the Rio Conchos, because most of the Rio Grande water was taken out upstream, near El Paso and further upstream in New Mexico. (Hardly anything makes it to the Rio Grande from the Pecos River) Makes no sense to invoke a treaty made 80 years ago under different conditions, when it's obvious that both sides of the border have experienced a drout for years now. It would make more sense to have joint rain dances, actually.
I live close to the Amistad Dam, cross it daily (I work in Mexico). The lake has been going significantly over the last ten years, dam is a confluence of three rivers - Rio Grande, Pecos and the Devils River. None have been flowing consistently, the Devil's River is almost a dry bed in some areas.
The Rio Grande, below the dam, is so low that Haitians were walking across with water only up to their knees a few years ago.
True statement! We did some volunteer work for the Nature Conservancy a while ago—they have a property on the west bank opposite the state park land. Have to drive across the river to get to it!
Excellent points, DaveL. Also, this treaty never addressed the issue of groundwater usage, causing more problems and tensions between the US and Mexico. Moreover, urban growth on both sides of the border states, especially with the establishemet of the maquiladoras, has also put pressure on water usage. These explosive growth rates vis-a-vis water allocation will have to be addressed by the IBWC.
A whole other issue, and at least as important. Especially here in Texas, where water rights seem to amount to how much and how fast you can pump it out of the ground. For example, I still see rainbird sprinklers for irrigation of hay fields, which indicates something about what the guy who uses them must pay for the water.
Very interesting. And, have you looked at the Canadian end? I live in a valley that was decimated by the Columbia River Treaty. The Arrow Lakes valley was once dotted with homesteads and villages. The expropriations that took place in the nineteen sixties ruined some of the best farmland in the Southern Interior of British Columbia.
To add insult to injury, the last few years have been drier. Beaches always become mudflats in the winter low water season, but that started to happen during peak tourist season.
Meanwhile South of the Keenleyside dam Roosevelt lake in Washington state was kept full.
There is more to the story, to do with power generation. The treaty is being renegotiated.
Have you heard of the NAWAPA plan? A dystopian wet dream by the Army Corps of Engineers, it would see the entire Rocky Mountain trench flooded, diverting water from the Yukon and Mackenzie rivers South.
This problem will only get worse as the American Southwest continues its rapid growth. I don't know if there's similar growth on the Mexican side, but if there is then that's going to be an issue as well.
A country run by criminal cartels has no say in these disputes. The pretend enemies of China and Russia are nothing compared to a nation at the US doorstep run by open criminals.
The Tijuana River Valley has been dumping raw sewage and pollutants into the ocean at the San Diego border for decades. U.S. beaches near the border are often closed for health and safety reasons. That Mexico has been unwilling to deal with this is a disgrace. Mexico is not Chad for gosh sakes - it’s the 12th richest country on the planet.
We might consider successful approaches to this problem such as seen in Israel (we have the Gulf of America available, as the Mediterranean is to Israel).
Our government isn’t capable of this, perhaps it’s best to make decisions based on where water is and isn’t.
Our government has gone from making sure “they” (government and cronies) succeed to now making sure the rest of us fail. A brief review of water or fire policies in California, or fire policies in Hawaii 💀 give one a snapshot. The only practical solution for most people is to avoid such places. Treat such rural areas as ghettos.
How about if California had built more reservoirs and actually captured all the rainwater over the past multiple very wet winters/springs we've had here? The lack of planning and wasteful spending in my state is mind-boggling. I'm betting it's cheaper to build reservoirs than to build desalination plants. De-sal is fine, but so many years of wasted potential.
Why does the timeline contain nothing whatsoever during the Biden Administration? Did the problem go away, or was the administration asleep at the wheel?
The Santa Cruz River in SoAZ flows both north and south. During monsoons the gates to keep out illegals have to be kept open, due to the large amount of trash headed north from Mexico.
Outstanding! Water, and lust for it, not to mention need for it, deserves a prominent place in our talk about immigration. NAFTA, Berta Caceres, and who owns life rights?
In the western US and northern Mexico there is never enough water to satisfy all needs, with the exception of occasional flood events. If it comes down to priorities, water is almost always more valuable to serve users as tap water than as irrigation water to grow crops. Farmers don't like to hear this, and argue that if they can't raise their crops, we will starve, but there are many areas where crops can be grown that are not so arid. I spent most of my life in New Mexico, and most of my career in water and wastewater treatment, so this is something I have studied.
And this is not a new problem. Mark Twain commented well over a century ago that, in the West, whiskey is for drinking, and water is for fighting over.
Sounds like both countries need to work on desalination. I don't see another viable solution.
Very energy intensive.
It so happens that the places that need desalination are usually places with great solar potential.
It takes a LOT of energy, especially with the large volumes, as would be required for irrigation.
Why we need nuclear power.
No doubt, but the other solutions are pretty ugly also. You end up taking away someone else's water in most cases, and they aren't going to be happy or tolerate it well. It's the point of the article, in fact.
It may well be that the water cost makes agriculture infeasible in certain regions. That is an economic decision and should serve to control things at some level. Urban desalination is another issue - you're not going to bulldoze a city because it's hard to get water to it. Usually.
Can’t disagree with anything you said. By the way, Vlacav Smil has written some informative and factual books on energy, especially so-called alternative energy, to which he’s sympathetic. Check that out, if you haven’t already.
Energy should be cheap.
Apparently we have wasted over $100B on high speed rail to nowhere. How about we transfer some of the future funding for that boondoggle to building a pipeline from the Mississippi River over the Rockies to deliver water to the Colorado River dam system during flood times. Plenty of storage capacity in the Powell and Lake Mead areas and flood abatement for the Mississippi. Win-Win.
And yes, desalination where feasible.
Projects like that (redirecting river water) are super expensive. The Soviets had a plan to redirect water from the Ob river system that runs into the Arctic Ocean and refill the Aral Sea, which was drained dry by agriculture, primarily. The estimated cost was astronomical and as a result it never happened. I'm all for a cool project that moves water from point A to point B, but i'd have to see a plan that made sense and didn't cause other problems over the longer term.
I didn’t say it would be cheap, but Discover Magazine ran a story about it some years ago. Also consider the savings from the ability to divert flood water from the Mississippi River region in years with heavy rain or suddenly warm springs that cause dangerous snow melts. I too would need to see a plan.
The State Water Project in CA delivers almost 2.5 million acre feet of water
https://mavensnotebook.com/2017/07/12/california-water-commission-a-primer-on-state-water-project-operations/
More or less by following terrain. Crossing mountain ranges is the part that gets expensive.
How about Mexico should improve its infrastructure so it doesn't lose so much water to evaporation and poor agricultural practices.
One more thing: I lived for 12 years within 15 miles of the river--and this is a pet peeve: the river is the Rio Grande.
"Rio Grande River" is redundant. Rio = River.
I didn't use that phrase.
Expecting other countries to become first world countries is a little unrealistic. Ag activities stay low-tech until governmental force is applied to change them. A country that teeters on the edge of being ruled by narcoterrorists is not going to have the bandwidth to change much.
Instead of $400 billion to Ukriane, the US government could have funded several desalinization plants along the West coast, thus reducing water use in California that could be directed to other southern border states.
Fresh water isn't a supply challenge; it is a logistics issue and storage challenge. These are challenges that we already have solutions for, but for the idiot technocrats in charge that cannot get anything done.
Water? Wouldn't you rather have a Bullet Train to Nowhere???
Exactly, Frank. Both countries could build DeSal plants.
F CA have them pay for the plants or turn into a modern dust bowl.
These water disputes have been ongoing since, well, 1944. Mexico has a long history of failing to honor their commitments under previous treaties. I suspect that their current promises are just as meaningless. After all, this is the same Mexican government that allowed (through massive political corruption) drug cartels to become the de facto rulers of much of the country.
If you look at a map, you will see a river (Rio Conchos) which flows into the Rio Grande (Rio Bravo on Mexican side of the border). This is at Presidio, Texas and Ojinaga, Mexico. Amistad and Falcones reservoir have been low level for years, so ordering release of water from those reservoirs doesn't really address the problem. You can't release water that's not there, or at least is not being replenished. At the intersection of the river at Ojinaga, most of the water comes from the Rio Conchos, because most of the Rio Grande water was taken out upstream, near El Paso and further upstream in New Mexico. (Hardly anything makes it to the Rio Grande from the Pecos River) Makes no sense to invoke a treaty made 80 years ago under different conditions, when it's obvious that both sides of the border have experienced a drout for years now. It would make more sense to have joint rain dances, actually.
Laughing at joint rain dances.
I live close to the Amistad Dam, cross it daily (I work in Mexico). The lake has been going significantly over the last ten years, dam is a confluence of three rivers - Rio Grande, Pecos and the Devils River. None have been flowing consistently, the Devil's River is almost a dry bed in some areas.
The Rio Grande, below the dam, is so low that Haitians were walking across with water only up to their knees a few years ago.
That’s right. I live further upstream, and we’ve seen it dry multiple times over the last few years.
That Devil’s River is sure a pretty river though, isn’t it? All that spring-fed water from cretaceous limestone gives it a nearly turquoise color!
Went up there a while back, real pretty but sure is hard to get to, about 17 miles of bad road to get to the good part.
True statement! We did some volunteer work for the Nature Conservancy a while ago—they have a property on the west bank opposite the state park land. Have to drive across the river to get to it!
You up by Sonora?
Brewster County, where the park is.
I want to see Trump do a rain dance.
He only moves his arms, tho.
He can make it rain with one arm tied behind his back.
Excellent points, DaveL. Also, this treaty never addressed the issue of groundwater usage, causing more problems and tensions between the US and Mexico. Moreover, urban growth on both sides of the border states, especially with the establishemet of the maquiladoras, has also put pressure on water usage. These explosive growth rates vis-a-vis water allocation will have to be addressed by the IBWC.
A whole other issue, and at least as important. Especially here in Texas, where water rights seem to amount to how much and how fast you can pump it out of the ground. For example, I still see rainbird sprinklers for irrigation of hay fields, which indicates something about what the guy who uses them must pay for the water.
Where's Hatfield the Rainmaker when you need him???
Right, where is he?
Very interesting. And, have you looked at the Canadian end? I live in a valley that was decimated by the Columbia River Treaty. The Arrow Lakes valley was once dotted with homesteads and villages. The expropriations that took place in the nineteen sixties ruined some of the best farmland in the Southern Interior of British Columbia.
To add insult to injury, the last few years have been drier. Beaches always become mudflats in the winter low water season, but that started to happen during peak tourist season.
Meanwhile South of the Keenleyside dam Roosevelt lake in Washington state was kept full.
There is more to the story, to do with power generation. The treaty is being renegotiated.
Have you heard of the NAWAPA plan? A dystopian wet dream by the Army Corps of Engineers, it would see the entire Rocky Mountain trench flooded, diverting water from the Yukon and Mackenzie rivers South.
This problem will only get worse as the American Southwest continues its rapid growth. I don't know if there's similar growth on the Mexican side, but if there is then that's going to be an issue as well.
Yes, there is similar grown on the Mexican side.
As Mark Twain famously said, "Whiskey is for drinking. Water is for fighting over."
Solar and nuclear powered desalinization is coming.
A country run by criminal cartels has no say in these disputes. The pretend enemies of China and Russia are nothing compared to a nation at the US doorstep run by open criminals.
The Tijuana River Valley has been dumping raw sewage and pollutants into the ocean at the San Diego border for decades. U.S. beaches near the border are often closed for health and safety reasons. That Mexico has been unwilling to deal with this is a disgrace. Mexico is not Chad for gosh sakes - it’s the 12th richest country on the planet.
Trump should make Baja the
53 rd State.
Desalination plants coupled with small scale nuclear is the only answer.
We might consider successful approaches to this problem such as seen in Israel (we have the Gulf of America available, as the Mediterranean is to Israel).
https://blogs.iadb.org/agua/en/how-to-solve-a-countrys-water-problem-learning-from-the-israeli-experience/
Our government isn’t capable of this, perhaps it’s best to make decisions based on where water is and isn’t.
Our government has gone from making sure “they” (government and cronies) succeed to now making sure the rest of us fail. A brief review of water or fire policies in California, or fire policies in Hawaii 💀 give one a snapshot. The only practical solution for most people is to avoid such places. Treat such rural areas as ghettos.
How about if California had built more reservoirs and actually captured all the rainwater over the past multiple very wet winters/springs we've had here? The lack of planning and wasteful spending in my state is mind-boggling. I'm betting it's cheaper to build reservoirs than to build desalination plants. De-sal is fine, but so many years of wasted potential.
Why does the timeline contain nothing whatsoever during the Biden Administration? Did the problem go away, or was the administration asleep at the wheel?
The Santa Cruz River in SoAZ flows both north and south. During monsoons the gates to keep out illegals have to be kept open, due to the large amount of trash headed north from Mexico.
Why do we have to put up with their trash ?
Outstanding! Water, and lust for it, not to mention need for it, deserves a prominent place in our talk about immigration. NAFTA, Berta Caceres, and who owns life rights?
In the western US and northern Mexico there is never enough water to satisfy all needs, with the exception of occasional flood events. If it comes down to priorities, water is almost always more valuable to serve users as tap water than as irrigation water to grow crops. Farmers don't like to hear this, and argue that if they can't raise their crops, we will starve, but there are many areas where crops can be grown that are not so arid. I spent most of my life in New Mexico, and most of my career in water and wastewater treatment, so this is something I have studied.
And this is not a new problem. Mark Twain commented well over a century ago that, in the West, whiskey is for drinking, and water is for fighting over.