Not everyone views this as a "free speech" issue, despite it being presented this way.
Some of us see this as the govt having the right to revoke the visas of guests who support Hamas, a designated terror org that has killed and kidnapped American citizens.
Some people see "free speech" as the paramount value, even though people here on vi…
Not everyone views this as a "free speech" issue, despite it being presented this way.
Some of us see this as the govt having the right to revoke the visas of guests who support Hamas, a designated terror org that has killed and kidnapped American citizens.
Some people see "free speech" as the paramount value, even though people here on visas do not have the same rights as Americans and must swear to not support terrorist orgs as part of their visa applications; others prioritize the civil rights of Americans here to attend class sans harrassment and agree that it's against American interests to allow Hamas supporters an open door into our country.
It's a question of competing values, which is why we're all here arguing.
I respect and appreciate Matt, but don't need him to do my thinking for me.
I believe all these people are on record as supporters of Hamas and are affiliated with orgs that support Hamas and that cheered the 10/7 massacre and denounced Israel even before the bodies were cold and before the IDF even moved into Gaza.
There is evidence if you care to accept it in good faith.
I would accept evidence in good faith but your opinion is not evidence. I call it an opinion because you started it with “I believe” and there’s also no evidence of anything you just said.
“I believe” simply means I don't have total certainty, as I don't really devote much time to reading the writings of college "activists".
My thoughts are 1) these people seem to have written and protested in support of Hamas, a designated terror org, which is a possible visa violation; and 2) they all seem to be affiliated w "pro-Palestinian" orgs, who are all proud supporters of terrorism, which they call "uprising" or some other romantic term meant to whitewash murder.
I am happy to revise my opinion if I discover I was wrong, but I think these are all commonly recognized facts.
I haven’t seen any evidence of support for Hamas in any writings or in any news coverage. I don’t think it’s right to conflate pro-Palestinian views with terrorism, those lies are how the consent for this is manufactured. I want actual evidence and proof then I’ll shut up. It’s not right to do this without evidence and I would want that same courtesy extended to me if something like this happened to me. When you or anyone else has actual evidence let me know!
"I don’t think it’s right to conflate pro-Palestinian views with terrorism"
I realize that Islamists and Leftists have been playing this cute game for 50 years—I don't hate Jews, just Zionists etc—but until I see a campus protest against Hamas, I will remain skeptical. You do recall all the pro-Palestinian orgs applauding 10/7 and posting handglider pics and other Hamas slogans, right? How could you celebrate 10/7 and then oppose terrorism?!? makes no sense.
"how the consent for this is manufactured"
It seems the great Chomsky wasn't so omniscient after all, if all our consent is so manufactured, then why do so many people disagree w each other?
It does seem to be a species of Chomsky thinking to believe everyone who doesn't agree w you has been molded by "manufactured consent" aka "false consciousness". But conflating pro-Palestinian views with terrorism doesn't mean I'm a dupe of AIPAC or of capitalism or that I need a healthy infusion of critical consciousness, it just means I listen to people's words and judge accordingly.
And while I don't judge person A by the words or deeds of person B, here's what Chomsky's homeboy Norm Finkelstein said about 10/7:
"I, for one, will never begrudge—on the contrary, it warms every fiber of my soul—the scenes of Gaza’s smiling children as their arrogant Jewish supremacist oppressors have, finally, been humbled."
I can provide no evidence to people who will not accept any evidence. Not to mention that rights and standards of evidence are different for citizens and foreign guests.
And if you think that being Jewish means it's not possible for someone to be afflicted w Jew hate or at least very receptive to anti-Jewish narratives, well, history is full of this type.
No one hated Jews more than the Jewish Karl Marx, Leon Trotsky sent thousands of Jews to their deaths, and Jewish Leftists from Chomsky to Finkelstein to Naomi Klein and Glenn Greenwald are second to no one in their hatred for the Jewish state. Jews helped Nazis load other Jews into cattle cars and helped the Soviets hunt down other Jews.
This isn't the space to delve into Jewish psychology, but Norm Finkelstein and his ilk would be far from the first Jews to ally themselves to Jew haters, I would guess it's a survival strategy and/or an internalization of the Jews' role as eternal scapegoats.
Either way, Finkelstein is repulsive, Jew or not, for having every fiber of his soul warmed by a massacre. There is sickness here somewhere.
"until I see a campus protest against Hamas, I will remain skeptical". You're going to be skeptical for a very long time. The pro-hamas bigots have been strangely quiet about the palestinians being tortured and killed by hamas after that march they had a few days ago.
Has there ever been a protest movement more ignorant or more destructive toward the people they claim to represent?
The real message of the Western pro-Palestinian orgs is: "We want you people to dedicate your lives to murder and war because Jews are oppressors and Israel is evil, and watching you spill their blood makes us feel righteous, holy and radical."
Our campus Hamasniks would have a hateful tantrum if the Palestinians chose peaceful coexistence over the eternal war against the Zionist entity, it gives their empty lives meaning and purpose.
To me it makes more sense realizing that this group is a mix of:
- bigots - people who irrationally hate the US, Israel or Jews
- people who have few connections with other people and want a group to belong to
- genuinely ignorant people with little to no understanding of ME history
The one thing they have in common is an unwillingness to address the holes in their argument. Example: "Israel is an apartheid state". They cannot understand that there are Israeli Arab judges putting Israeli Jewish criminals in jail, and why would any of the 2mm Israeli Arabs stay in Israel when they can leave and live in an Arab country.
After the "Palestinians" lost every war yet still refused to accept the existence of the Jewish state, they turned to a new dual strategy: terrorism and PR.
The PR was designed to emotionally manipulate gullible Westerners into seeing them as helpless victims of the Zionists, and seeing their cause as a natural extension of the modern Western secular crusade for "universal rights".
The Palis may be terrible at governing but their PR campaign has been a smashing success. They know how to play on Western white guilt and saviorism like Jimi Hendrix knew how to play guitar.
Not everyone views this as a "free speech" issue, despite it being presented this way.
Some of us see this as the govt having the right to revoke the visas of guests who support Hamas, a designated terror org that has killed and kidnapped American citizens.
Some people see "free speech" as the paramount value, even though people here on visas do not have the same rights as Americans and must swear to not support terrorist orgs as part of their visa applications; others prioritize the civil rights of Americans here to attend class sans harrassment and agree that it's against American interests to allow Hamas supporters an open door into our country.
It's a question of competing values, which is why we're all here arguing.
I respect and appreciate Matt, but don't need him to do my thinking for me.
If there were any evidence these people supported a terrorist organization this would be a pretty neat comment!!
I believe all these people are on record as supporters of Hamas and are affiliated with orgs that support Hamas and that cheered the 10/7 massacre and denounced Israel even before the bodies were cold and before the IDF even moved into Gaza.
There is evidence if you care to accept it in good faith.
I would accept evidence in good faith but your opinion is not evidence. I call it an opinion because you started it with “I believe” and there’s also no evidence of anything you just said.
“I believe” simply means I don't have total certainty, as I don't really devote much time to reading the writings of college "activists".
My thoughts are 1) these people seem to have written and protested in support of Hamas, a designated terror org, which is a possible visa violation; and 2) they all seem to be affiliated w "pro-Palestinian" orgs, who are all proud supporters of terrorism, which they call "uprising" or some other romantic term meant to whitewash murder.
I am happy to revise my opinion if I discover I was wrong, but I think these are all commonly recognized facts.
I haven’t seen any evidence of support for Hamas in any writings or in any news coverage. I don’t think it’s right to conflate pro-Palestinian views with terrorism, those lies are how the consent for this is manufactured. I want actual evidence and proof then I’ll shut up. It’s not right to do this without evidence and I would want that same courtesy extended to me if something like this happened to me. When you or anyone else has actual evidence let me know!
"I don’t think it’s right to conflate pro-Palestinian views with terrorism"
I realize that Islamists and Leftists have been playing this cute game for 50 years—I don't hate Jews, just Zionists etc—but until I see a campus protest against Hamas, I will remain skeptical. You do recall all the pro-Palestinian orgs applauding 10/7 and posting handglider pics and other Hamas slogans, right? How could you celebrate 10/7 and then oppose terrorism?!? makes no sense.
"how the consent for this is manufactured"
It seems the great Chomsky wasn't so omniscient after all, if all our consent is so manufactured, then why do so many people disagree w each other?
It does seem to be a species of Chomsky thinking to believe everyone who doesn't agree w you has been molded by "manufactured consent" aka "false consciousness". But conflating pro-Palestinian views with terrorism doesn't mean I'm a dupe of AIPAC or of capitalism or that I need a healthy infusion of critical consciousness, it just means I listen to people's words and judge accordingly.
And while I don't judge person A by the words or deeds of person B, here's what Chomsky's homeboy Norm Finkelstein said about 10/7:
"I, for one, will never begrudge—on the contrary, it warms every fiber of my soul—the scenes of Gaza’s smiling children as their arrogant Jewish supremacist oppressors have, finally, been humbled."
Does this count as support of terrorism? Cmon.
So no, no evidence then. Cool.
You know Finklestein's Jewish and had several of his family members die in Nazi concentration camps, right?
I can provide no evidence to people who will not accept any evidence. Not to mention that rights and standards of evidence are different for citizens and foreign guests.
And if you think that being Jewish means it's not possible for someone to be afflicted w Jew hate or at least very receptive to anti-Jewish narratives, well, history is full of this type.
No one hated Jews more than the Jewish Karl Marx, Leon Trotsky sent thousands of Jews to their deaths, and Jewish Leftists from Chomsky to Finkelstein to Naomi Klein and Glenn Greenwald are second to no one in their hatred for the Jewish state. Jews helped Nazis load other Jews into cattle cars and helped the Soviets hunt down other Jews.
This isn't the space to delve into Jewish psychology, but Norm Finkelstein and his ilk would be far from the first Jews to ally themselves to Jew haters, I would guess it's a survival strategy and/or an internalization of the Jews' role as eternal scapegoats.
Either way, Finkelstein is repulsive, Jew or not, for having every fiber of his soul warmed by a massacre. There is sickness here somewhere.
Well you could at least *try* to provide some evidence. We already know you can flap your gums at length.
ouch! love the nose ring! cheers
Back at the encampment, they have your Hallal Ham n Cheese sandwich.
"until I see a campus protest against Hamas, I will remain skeptical". You're going to be skeptical for a very long time. The pro-hamas bigots have been strangely quiet about the palestinians being tortured and killed by hamas after that march they had a few days ago.
Has there ever been a protest movement more ignorant or more destructive toward the people they claim to represent?
The real message of the Western pro-Palestinian orgs is: "We want you people to dedicate your lives to murder and war because Jews are oppressors and Israel is evil, and watching you spill their blood makes us feel righteous, holy and radical."
Our campus Hamasniks would have a hateful tantrum if the Palestinians chose peaceful coexistence over the eternal war against the Zionist entity, it gives their empty lives meaning and purpose.
To me it makes more sense realizing that this group is a mix of:
- bigots - people who irrationally hate the US, Israel or Jews
- people who have few connections with other people and want a group to belong to
- genuinely ignorant people with little to no understanding of ME history
The one thing they have in common is an unwillingness to address the holes in their argument. Example: "Israel is an apartheid state". They cannot understand that there are Israeli Arab judges putting Israeli Jewish criminals in jail, and why would any of the 2mm Israeli Arabs stay in Israel when they can leave and live in an Arab country.
It is shocking stupidity.
After the "Palestinians" lost every war yet still refused to accept the existence of the Jewish state, they turned to a new dual strategy: terrorism and PR.
The PR was designed to emotionally manipulate gullible Westerners into seeing them as helpless victims of the Zionists, and seeing their cause as a natural extension of the modern Western secular crusade for "universal rights".
The Palis may be terrible at governing but their PR campaign has been a smashing success. They know how to play on Western white guilt and saviorism like Jimi Hendrix knew how to play guitar.
You sound boosted.