I beat a private student loan holder in court for something like $30,000. The loan had originally been with one of the big providers, but they later sold it off to basically a collection agency. That agency eventually sued me, and since I didn't have any money anyway, I decided to fight it in court rather than just submit.
I beat a private student loan holder in court for something like $30,000. The loan had originally been with one of the big providers, but they later sold it off to basically a collection agency. That agency eventually sued me, and since I didn't have any money anyway, I decided to fight it in court rather than just submit.
Then I did standard discovery to ask for proof that I owed the Plaintiff the money. As it turns out, there was basically no paper trail of the loan origination, just a photocopy of a ledger that couldn't possibly be authenticated by the new note holder. Still, the collection agency Plaintiff persisted, until I threatened to counter-sue them for malicious prosecution after I beat them on the debt collection action. I still had to show up in court on the day of the trial, only to find out the Plaintiff had dismissed the case at close of business the night before.
Nicely done, Michael. I did the same thing with two alleged creditors who had purchased a block of bad debt and were just firing off a pile of lawsuits because *most* people either don't show up or they think they will need an expensive lawyer. They don't. All anyone needs to do is file the right paperwork in the right order and ask to see if the plaintiff has the right to sue for this amount.
It's fun, entertaining and relatively easy to just type up legal lined requests for discovery in return to theirs. The best part is that lawyers are people and as such... statistically they'll be less smart than you and you can make them look dumb in front of a judge.
Even the greasy smart ones only have so much leeway to bargain with. They even try to intercept you before going into the courtroom and see if you'll agree to some amount.
Pff. When they haven't answered the most appropriate questions?
This literally sounds wonderful! I almost wish I were in such a situation so I could try this. It appears you've found a crack in the legal labyrinth that normally bars any ordinary citizen from access to anything approaching justice.
I used to get people off in the NYC traffic court using similar tactics. I'd bring in a pile of evidence like pictures, diagrams, statements and such and the officers would bring in bupkis. The trucking company I was working for (doing claim investigations for an independent adjuster) would occasionally pay me an hour or two to do this because their safety policy involved firing drivers on first ticket. Stupid policy, but it gave them a mercy angle of trying to get their guys off. I never lost.
Congratulations! I can only hope that I would've had the guts to do what you did in a similar situation. This also echoes one aspect of the mortgage meltdown, in which records of sold-off mortgages were improperly transferred leaving no verifiable trace.
Thanks. I'm not sure it was "guts," as much as shoulder shrugging and "wtf, might as well." But it seemed like the Plaintiff's whole shtick was to make their victory seem inevitable, even though they couldn't prove it. I'm guessing they bought the debt for pennies on the dollar.
Thanks, I appreciate that. But I have a really hard time taking any credit, because the only reason I fought it was that I had taken so many life losses in a row, I literally had nothing else to lose. I get the sense it's the same kind of feeling some people had when they thought, "Fuck it, I'm voting for Trump."
I discovered the same action. Not due to my astounding intelligence, but merely because I had learned years previously that always request original documents to prove a claim. I suspect that many student loan borrowers today could benefit from this simple business practice. I am glad you posted your experience of that fact.
You can beat them. But they will learn from their mistakes. The typical way to deal with people like you is to respond to your discovery requests with tens of thousands of pages of almost relevant material; they bury the opposition with discovery. Then they file a Rule 8 motion for sanctions.
I'm a retired lawyer, and completely agree. Several times I represented defendants in actions by collection agencies on supposedly assigned credit card debt. The same thing happened - they had a ledger but no original documents. They had no ability to prove the debt really existed.
@Matt Taibbi, is it possible that what you observed were not evictions, but foreclosures? In many states, foreclosures are a court process. I'm told they're often done in a "rocket docket." Simply being foreclosed upon doesn't evict the former owner, however. The new owner of the home still has to file and win a lawsuit if the former owner doesn't leave.
OK, yes, Wikipedia tells me you reported on rocket docket *foreclosures* back during the 2010 housing crisis. Please, please, it's an important difference. Eviction plaintiffs aren't predatory institutional lenders.
@MattTaibbi I had to look up the term "rocket docket evictions," and I'm a landlord-tenant lawyer. Also, by "note holder," do you mean the owner of the rental property? That seems impossible, because the owner, or the manager for the owner, has to be the plaintiff in the lawsuit. Maybe in whatever state you witnessed this in, there's some eviction procedure other than a lawsuit?
I'm extremely curious, because in California, absolutely any defendant who gets an attorney and fights an eviction (and free defense attorneys are easy to get) can easily make the process cost $20,000 or more to the property owner. And even before COVID, it took a few months.
Might be something to look into in the context of private student collections. This ledger was so cursory, as you say, there's no way anyone could have identified who actually owned the note, or even where it came from. Someone could have easily just made it up. And Plaintiff had the balls to sign under penalty of perjury that this was the only evidence that my loan had ever existed. I'm very sure they were just running a boiler room operation to either scare people into settling, or get defaults where they could. There's no way they could have taken my case to trial with any reasonable expectation of prevailing.
This is how Lexington Law works, in case no-one has heard of them. They make shit on your credit report disappear for $130/month and it only take a matter of 3-4 months for them to provide results. The absolute best value in legal services there is. It's astounding, really.
I beat a private student loan holder in court for something like $30,000. The loan had originally been with one of the big providers, but they later sold it off to basically a collection agency. That agency eventually sued me, and since I didn't have any money anyway, I decided to fight it in court rather than just submit.
Then I did standard discovery to ask for proof that I owed the Plaintiff the money. As it turns out, there was basically no paper trail of the loan origination, just a photocopy of a ledger that couldn't possibly be authenticated by the new note holder. Still, the collection agency Plaintiff persisted, until I threatened to counter-sue them for malicious prosecution after I beat them on the debt collection action. I still had to show up in court on the day of the trial, only to find out the Plaintiff had dismissed the case at close of business the night before.
So yeah, you can beat them.
Nicely done, Michael. I did the same thing with two alleged creditors who had purchased a block of bad debt and were just firing off a pile of lawsuits because *most* people either don't show up or they think they will need an expensive lawyer. They don't. All anyone needs to do is file the right paperwork in the right order and ask to see if the plaintiff has the right to sue for this amount.
It's fun, entertaining and relatively easy to just type up legal lined requests for discovery in return to theirs. The best part is that lawyers are people and as such... statistically they'll be less smart than you and you can make them look dumb in front of a judge.
Even the greasy smart ones only have so much leeway to bargain with. They even try to intercept you before going into the courtroom and see if you'll agree to some amount.
Pff. When they haven't answered the most appropriate questions?
I don't think so.
This literally sounds wonderful! I almost wish I were in such a situation so I could try this. It appears you've found a crack in the legal labyrinth that normally bars any ordinary citizen from access to anything approaching justice.
I used to get people off in the NYC traffic court using similar tactics. I'd bring in a pile of evidence like pictures, diagrams, statements and such and the officers would bring in bupkis. The trucking company I was working for (doing claim investigations for an independent adjuster) would occasionally pay me an hour or two to do this because their safety policy involved firing drivers on first ticket. Stupid policy, but it gave them a mercy angle of trying to get their guys off. I never lost.
Love it. Although defending a lawsuit is only fun and entertaining for certain types. Glad you were one of those.
WOW! What a great story.
Congratulations! I can only hope that I would've had the guts to do what you did in a similar situation. This also echoes one aspect of the mortgage meltdown, in which records of sold-off mortgages were improperly transferred leaving no verifiable trace.
Thanks. I'm not sure it was "guts," as much as shoulder shrugging and "wtf, might as well." But it seemed like the Plaintiff's whole shtick was to make their victory seem inevitable, even though they couldn't prove it. I'm guessing they bought the debt for pennies on the dollar.
So we make them prove injury of fact.
Are they only out $0.04 on the dollar? If so, how can the defendant pay them $0.96 extra?
What a scam.
If existong debt law required this sort of proof.....
"Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose…" —Me and Bobby McGee, Kris Kristofferson
👍👍
I'm happy for you and as proud as someone can be of someone they don't know.
Thanks, I appreciate that. But I have a really hard time taking any credit, because the only reason I fought it was that I had taken so many life losses in a row, I literally had nothing else to lose. I get the sense it's the same kind of feeling some people had when they thought, "Fuck it, I'm voting for Trump."
You hit the nail on the head.
I discovered the same action. Not due to my astounding intelligence, but merely because I had learned years previously that always request original documents to prove a claim. I suspect that many student loan borrowers today could benefit from this simple business practice. I am glad you posted your experience of that fact.
You can beat them. But they will learn from their mistakes. The typical way to deal with people like you is to respond to your discovery requests with tens of thousands of pages of almost relevant material; they bury the opposition with discovery. Then they file a Rule 8 motion for sanctions.
YAY!!!!! So happy for you!!!! 🎉🎉
I think it's likely my wife's debt may have been bought and sold... Is there a way to take advantage of such a situation without defaulting?
I'm a retired lawyer, and completely agree. Several times I represented defendants in actions by collection agencies on supposedly assigned credit card debt. The same thing happened - they had a ledger but no original documents. They had no ability to prove the debt really existed.
Saw this a lot in “rocket docket” evictions. No one had any clue who the current note holder was in a bunch of the cases.
@Matt Taibbi, is it possible that what you observed were not evictions, but foreclosures? In many states, foreclosures are a court process. I'm told they're often done in a "rocket docket." Simply being foreclosed upon doesn't evict the former owner, however. The new owner of the home still has to file and win a lawsuit if the former owner doesn't leave.
OK, yes, Wikipedia tells me you reported on rocket docket *foreclosures* back during the 2010 housing crisis. Please, please, it's an important difference. Eviction plaintiffs aren't predatory institutional lenders.
Eviction plaintiffs are predators.
How do you define predator, and what do you base that belief on?
And what's your proposed solution to the problem as you see it?
@MattTaibbi I had to look up the term "rocket docket evictions," and I'm a landlord-tenant lawyer. Also, by "note holder," do you mean the owner of the rental property? That seems impossible, because the owner, or the manager for the owner, has to be the plaintiff in the lawsuit. Maybe in whatever state you witnessed this in, there's some eviction procedure other than a lawsuit?
I'm extremely curious, because in California, absolutely any defendant who gets an attorney and fights an eviction (and free defense attorneys are easy to get) can easily make the process cost $20,000 or more to the property owner. And even before COVID, it took a few months.
Might be something to look into in the context of private student collections. This ledger was so cursory, as you say, there's no way anyone could have identified who actually owned the note, or even where it came from. Someone could have easily just made it up. And Plaintiff had the balls to sign under penalty of perjury that this was the only evidence that my loan had ever existed. I'm very sure they were just running a boiler room operation to either scare people into settling, or get defaults where they could. There's no way they could have taken my case to trial with any reasonable expectation of prevailing.
👍👍👍👍
This is how Lexington Law works, in case no-one has heard of them. They make shit on your credit report disappear for $130/month and it only take a matter of 3-4 months for them to provide results. The absolute best value in legal services there is. It's astounding, really.