And that is exactly one of the biggest problems in the way of a productive discourse. While I might agree on the principle, as I believe as well that huge central governments are too invasive of citizens' lives, as long as you keep airing your negative lists, replete with what is, at best, hearsay without any demonstrable factual basis (…
And that is exactly one of the biggest problems in the way of a productive discourse. While I might agree on the principle, as I believe as well that huge central governments are too invasive of citizens' lives, as long as you keep airing your negative lists, replete with what is, at best, hearsay without any demonstrable factual basis (I am still waiting on the data about that 63% of welfare being used by non-citizens) there is no possibility of reaching an agreement. As long as we prefer to complain about a problem rather than putting in the effort to work out a solution, the problem won't magically disappear. For the joy of the perennial complainers.
If one is against government overreach for example, one cannot pick and choose where one wants government to back off. So one can't be, for example, against mask mandates when imposed by Dems but in favor of the restrictions of freedom mandated by the Patriot Act. Or in favor of the war on drugs: why should givernment dictate what one can and what can't put in one's body? Or in favor of death penalty, because there is no bigger overreach than taking a citizen's life. The mere existence of the possibility of error in executing an innocent should horrify everyone who claims to value freedom. Instead, despite repeated documented errors, there is no widespread condemnation.
Clearly, it is much easier to point out the other side's misdeeds, real or alleged, than to self-analyze to verify whether our beliefs are in line with our stated ideals.
The number of non-citizen households using welfare increased to 70% for those who have lived in the United States for 10 years or more. There are 9,000,000 Birthright Citizens that allow the WHOLE unauthorized family to collect just like a CITIZEN:
Several hospitals, including ones in Stockton (40% Hispanic & Bankrupt), CA and Dallas, TX, report as many as 70% of their deliveries are to nonUS-residents. Similarly, the parents of infant citizens still qualify for welfare in order to protect the children
Immigrant families caught illegally crossing the Mexican border told U.S. immigration agents they made the dangerous trip because they believed they would be permitted to stay in the United States and collect public benefits.
Sorry for the late reply, I have been away for a while. Thanks for the data. I had misunderstood your point, as I thought you claimed that 63% of the welfare resources were being used by non-citizens. Instead you were making the point that 63% of immigrant households use some forms ot welfare (mostly food) versus 35% of citizen households, which makes sense.
Let's make a couple of computations. According to the census data in https://censusscope.org/us/rank_mig_non_citizens.html, non-citizens are about 6.6% of the US population (about 18.5 millions over a total of about 281.5 millions), this translate to about 11.7 millions of non-citizens having received some form of welfare vs. 92 millions of citizens, i.e., non-citizen represent only 11.3% of the welfare recipients. In concrete, do you have an idea of what the welfare that is provided amounts to? Let me tell you, nothing that helps anyone beyond survival. And surely nothing that would make anyone embark on any trip from another land to collect, let alone a dangerous one. The immigrants that come here do it for the hope of a better life and work hard for it. The claim that "they told U.S. immigration agents they made the dangerous trip because they believed they would be permitted to stay in the United States and collect public benefits" is unfortunately another one of these slogans made to steer certain views but not backed by any facts. Of course, I am ready to reconsider if you provide any evidence of a diffused behavior. But before even hinting that people want to come here because they want to do nothing I would suggest that you try to experience yourself the trip they made to have an idea of how far from that frame of mind one has to be to go through that ordeal.
Let's not close our eyes and recognize that neither party has made any attempt to solve the immigration issue when it had full control of government, because they have not interest in doing so. Vast sectors of the US economy (e.g., the California agriculture), are fueled by immigrants, paid a misery and in black and at risk to lose any moment everything they have managed to build. If you had had any real life contact with immigrants, you would know that by "virtue" of the current system, they are used as workforce, paid a misery, and the little money they receive is taken away with interest in fines and legal fees when as soon as they enter in contact with any representative of the law, they are held for months in some for profit prison (even their imprisonment is a contribution to the US economy) where they might even be forced to work (e.g., helping fighting fires in California) before being unceremoniously dumped across the border when no more drop of blood can be extracted from them. Not that much different from the US economy of centuries past, with the difference that this time the field or factory owners do not need anymore to go forcefully "recruit" their workforce, as it pops up spontaneously at the border. This is the real reason why immigration has never been regulated, because those holding power benefit from it. And you want mass deportations? Sure, if you enjoy self-castration, close the borders and the economy of this country will fold shortly thereafter. The right thing to do is to regulate immigration, so that those who come here and contribute to the economy have clear rights and duties and can't be used and thrown away as a kleenex.
There are 14,000,000 Unauthorized and 9,000,000 ANCHOR. (DACA spawned 260,000 ANCHORS) Only 4% DACA graduated college. - They and all members of their families can access all welfare with an ANCHOR. All DACA were slated for deportation by an immigration judge.
California has 35% of the family welfare rolls with only 12% of the population
Several hospitals, including ones in Stockton (40% Hispanic & Bankrupt), CA and Dallas, TX, report as many as 70% of their deliveries are to nonUS-residents. Similarly, the parents of infant citizens still qualify for welfare in order to protect the children
It costs $12,600 to educate a child for 1 year. If they need Special Ed that doubles.
9 million Anchor CITIZENS? 9M times $12,600 = $113,400,000,000. Over 10 years, That's $1.134 TRILLION! All paid for by the states. This doesn't even count full payment for Emergency and Pregnancy Pre natal - Post natal or their 14,000,000 parents.
An average income of Latinos is $54,000 = $4,480.50 in Federal Tax on $52,000 (average Hispanic income) 2022. They will pay $2,443.40 in South Carolina State tax $7,000 in taxes.
Paid $7,000 used $37,900. That does not count use of any of the 81 Means Tested Welfare programs. That's a - $30,900 LOSS PER FAMILY. The legal ones are more expensive.
Dec 9, 2021 Hispanics make up 28% of all welfare recipients. They represents 18.4% of the U.S. total population.
You are mixing all sorts of things together. First of all, it's clear that for you the distinction between "legal" and "illegal" is irrelevant. That's at least honest, as you do not hide between the BS fig leaf of being just against "illegal immigration", but apparently want all the latinos gone. I have a deep repulsion for the term illegal applied to immigration, because it is used as a moral judgment, to present them as they were criminals. However, the status of legal or illegal immigrant has nothing to do with the high concept of justice, but it only describes the immigrant status in relation to the law that is in place at a certain time. A law that is only shaped by a series of concrete conveniences, all far away from any ideal of justice. It's clear that with today's laws, the large majority of US citizens would all be descendants of illegal immigrants. This is just to put things in perspective.
Now back to the concrete issues, those that you contemptuously call "anchors", are US citizens as much as you and I. So, I'm sorry but you have the same right to cut their benefits as they have to cut yours. US citizens who, unlike the majority, all grew up in extremely precarious conditions, with undocumented parents bringing home meager pays and who were always one unlucky encounter away from being deported. In fact, as you might now, an American citizen cannot sponsor her/his parents before reaching the age of 21.
You are right to rant against the social costs caused by this system, you are just mistaken in choosing your target. You are blaming the victims of the system, those that are the cannon fodder for the US economy. Do you really think that whatever little welfare state and federal governments hand out to immigrants, they do it out of the goodness of their hearts? It is another classic example of how in our country, profits are privatized and costs are socialized. There are large economic interests that want to keep the status quo. Too many employers love to have these modern slaves, a workforce that has no legal rights, that can be paid a misery, provided with no benefits and that can be forced to work as much and as hard as they desire, because if anyone disagrees, his life and family can be fucked up with a simple call. It is exactly like the Walmart model: the employers of immigrants do not want to pay them even enough to cover basic survival needs, i.e., the cost of food and a roof (especially in California), let alone pay medical bills, and are more than happy to have the collectivity subsidize their cheap labor. Because, after all, even though there is no shortage of potential replacements, having workers dropping dead too frequently because of exhaustion and malnutrition would be bad from a PR standpoint.
Unless we are willing to recognize what the roots of the problems are, we will never solve them. In the US there is only one thing that is as sure as death, nothing is allowed to happen unless it benefits some moneyed interests. That's why Congress is able to decide unanimously in a couple of days to send billions of dollars in aid to a foreign country fighting a war we are not involved in, but it cannot fix immigration in decades. If immigration was regulated, employers will be forced to hire legally, providing adequate pay and benefits, so the immigrant workers would not be forced into welfare but would actually contribute to the system through payroll taxes. And they would live a normal life, as a productive part of society instead of being forced into phantom existence by a rotten system that needs them but doesn't want to acknowledge them
There is NO distinction between Legal and Illegal. Illegal Aliens can invade the US wait 10 years and establish residency and get a Green Card that makes you LEGAL. Unauthorized pregnant women get everything free from Pre to Post Natal. Then they can legally collect everything that our CITIZENS CAN NOT because the are working. Doesn't that sound ironic:
There would not be an invasion problem if the Presidents had followed ther laws of Congress:
212(a)(4) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA), an individual seeking admission to the United States or seeking to adjust status to that of an individual lawfully admitted for permanent residence (green card) is INADMISSIBLE if the individual, "at the time of application for admission or adjustment of status, is likely at any time to become a public charge.”
Expedited Removal
8 U.S.C. § 1182 - U.S. Code Title 8. Aliens and ...
§ 1182(a)(7) (lack of valid entry documents),
(I) who is not in possession of a valid unexpired immigrant visa, reentry permit, border crossing identification card, or other valid entry document required by this chapter, and a valid unexpired passport s. The Border Officer can refuse the person’s entry and order him or her immediately removed from the U.S. After being removed from the country through expedited removal, you are barred from returning to the U.S. for 5 years or longer and do not have a right to counsel or to a hearing before an immigration judge.
We don't need new laws. We need to enforce the laws we already have. The system is not rotten. It's being ignored and YOU WANT TO INSTITUTIONALIZE your IGNOR ance.
The slave force is ruining our standard of living.
"Your opinion is worth JACK SHIT!" What a surprise, when confronted and not let free to spill your BS, you become unhinged. An opinion is as good as the facts on which it's based. Let see all the basic facts you get wrong to measure how much your opinion is worth.
Let's see:
1) "There is NO distinction between Legal and Illegal. " Only in your head.
2) "Illegal Aliens can invade the US wait 10 years and establish residency and get a Green Card that makes you LEGAL" Maybe in the science fiction movies you watch. If you are talking about immigration, and not space invasions, such a path does not in general exist. As it is clearly shown in the links you posted, not a good show of reading comprehension. DACA's goal was to create such a potential path for a restricted category, dreamers, but its destiny is still up in the air. In general cases a path to legal status is possible only through marriage with a citizen/permanent residency and is far from automatic. Parents sponsored by a citizen child need to wait at least 21 years, so your "10 years wait" is another piece of royal BS.
3) Let's not forget the gem with which you introduced yourself in your first post "Is Biden leaving the Border open because there will be more people who will vote for an Open Border?". Either you don't know that immigrants cannot vote, only citizens can, or you willfully ignore it to justfy your rants.
Feel free to go back to your wet dreams of mass deportations, I won't interrupt them anymore.
And that is exactly one of the biggest problems in the way of a productive discourse. While I might agree on the principle, as I believe as well that huge central governments are too invasive of citizens' lives, as long as you keep airing your negative lists, replete with what is, at best, hearsay without any demonstrable factual basis (I am still waiting on the data about that 63% of welfare being used by non-citizens) there is no possibility of reaching an agreement. As long as we prefer to complain about a problem rather than putting in the effort to work out a solution, the problem won't magically disappear. For the joy of the perennial complainers.
If one is against government overreach for example, one cannot pick and choose where one wants government to back off. So one can't be, for example, against mask mandates when imposed by Dems but in favor of the restrictions of freedom mandated by the Patriot Act. Or in favor of the war on drugs: why should givernment dictate what one can and what can't put in one's body? Or in favor of death penalty, because there is no bigger overreach than taking a citizen's life. The mere existence of the possibility of error in executing an innocent should horrify everyone who claims to value freedom. Instead, despite repeated documented errors, there is no widespread condemnation.
Clearly, it is much easier to point out the other side's misdeeds, real or alleged, than to self-analyze to verify whether our beliefs are in line with our stated ideals.
Totally agree about government OVERREACH especially your examples.
63% of NON citizen Households Access Welfare
https://cis.org/Report/63-NonCitizen-Households-Access-Welfare-Programs
The number of non-citizen households using welfare increased to 70% for those who have lived in the United States for 10 years or more. There are 9,000,000 Birthright Citizens that allow the WHOLE unauthorized family to collect just like a CITIZEN:
Several hospitals, including ones in Stockton (40% Hispanic & Bankrupt), CA and Dallas, TX, report as many as 70% of their deliveries are to nonUS-residents. Similarly, the parents of infant citizens still qualify for welfare in order to protect the children
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/the-14th_b_1343158
Immigrant families caught illegally crossing the Mexican border told U.S. immigration agents they made the dangerous trip because they believed they would be permitted to stay in the United States and collect public benefits.
https://apnews.com/article/3ef53d48e1544f54b1572d736b1f0852
SOLUTION - Mass Deportation. Think of all the jobs it will generate and all the schools it will save.
Repeal Birth Right Citizenship
Sorry for the late reply, I have been away for a while. Thanks for the data. I had misunderstood your point, as I thought you claimed that 63% of the welfare resources were being used by non-citizens. Instead you were making the point that 63% of immigrant households use some forms ot welfare (mostly food) versus 35% of citizen households, which makes sense.
Let's make a couple of computations. According to the census data in https://censusscope.org/us/rank_mig_non_citizens.html, non-citizens are about 6.6% of the US population (about 18.5 millions over a total of about 281.5 millions), this translate to about 11.7 millions of non-citizens having received some form of welfare vs. 92 millions of citizens, i.e., non-citizen represent only 11.3% of the welfare recipients. In concrete, do you have an idea of what the welfare that is provided amounts to? Let me tell you, nothing that helps anyone beyond survival. And surely nothing that would make anyone embark on any trip from another land to collect, let alone a dangerous one. The immigrants that come here do it for the hope of a better life and work hard for it. The claim that "they told U.S. immigration agents they made the dangerous trip because they believed they would be permitted to stay in the United States and collect public benefits" is unfortunately another one of these slogans made to steer certain views but not backed by any facts. Of course, I am ready to reconsider if you provide any evidence of a diffused behavior. But before even hinting that people want to come here because they want to do nothing I would suggest that you try to experience yourself the trip they made to have an idea of how far from that frame of mind one has to be to go through that ordeal.
Let's not close our eyes and recognize that neither party has made any attempt to solve the immigration issue when it had full control of government, because they have not interest in doing so. Vast sectors of the US economy (e.g., the California agriculture), are fueled by immigrants, paid a misery and in black and at risk to lose any moment everything they have managed to build. If you had had any real life contact with immigrants, you would know that by "virtue" of the current system, they are used as workforce, paid a misery, and the little money they receive is taken away with interest in fines and legal fees when as soon as they enter in contact with any representative of the law, they are held for months in some for profit prison (even their imprisonment is a contribution to the US economy) where they might even be forced to work (e.g., helping fighting fires in California) before being unceremoniously dumped across the border when no more drop of blood can be extracted from them. Not that much different from the US economy of centuries past, with the difference that this time the field or factory owners do not need anymore to go forcefully "recruit" their workforce, as it pops up spontaneously at the border. This is the real reason why immigration has never been regulated, because those holding power benefit from it. And you want mass deportations? Sure, if you enjoy self-castration, close the borders and the economy of this country will fold shortly thereafter. The right thing to do is to regulate immigration, so that those who come here and contribute to the economy have clear rights and duties and can't be used and thrown away as a kleenex.
There are 14,000,000 Unauthorized and 9,000,000 ANCHOR. (DACA spawned 260,000 ANCHORS) Only 4% DACA graduated college. - They and all members of their families can access all welfare with an ANCHOR. All DACA were slated for deportation by an immigration judge.
California has 35% of the family welfare rolls with only 12% of the population
http://www.city-data.com/forum/politics-other-controversies/2869714-california-has-35-family-welfare-rolls.html
https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/politics/sdut-welfare-capital-of-the-us-2012jul28-htmlstory.html
They don't call them anchors for nothing:
Several hospitals, including ones in Stockton (40% Hispanic & Bankrupt), CA and Dallas, TX, report as many as 70% of their deliveries are to nonUS-residents. Similarly, the parents of infant citizens still qualify for welfare in order to protect the children
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/the-14th_b_1343158
It costs $12,600 to educate a child for 1 year. If they need Special Ed that doubles.
9 million Anchor CITIZENS? 9M times $12,600 = $113,400,000,000. Over 10 years, That's $1.134 TRILLION! All paid for by the states. This doesn't even count full payment for Emergency and Pregnancy Pre natal - Post natal or their 14,000,000 parents.
Our schools are ruined. Ask anyone.
2.6 kids X $12,600 = $32,700 add $2,000 Child credits = $5,200. = $37,900.
An average income of Latinos is $54,000 = $4,480.50 in Federal Tax on $52,000 (average Hispanic income) 2022. They will pay $2,443.40 in South Carolina State tax $7,000 in taxes.
us.icalculator.info/salary-illustration/52000.html
Paid $7,000 used $37,900. That does not count use of any of the 81 Means Tested Welfare programs. That's a - $30,900 LOSS PER FAMILY. The legal ones are more expensive.
Dec 9, 2021 Hispanics make up 28% of all welfare recipients. They represents 18.4% of the U.S. total population.
https://fortunly.com/statistics/welfare-statistics/
They are a HUGE DETRIMENT to the economy and depress wages.
We need less farm labor as most are going robotic. What excuse are you going to use for subsidizing 80M Latinos?
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-04-15/farm-labor-crunch-leads-u-s-produce-growers-to-turn-to-robots#xj4y7vzkg
We do not need a SLAVE culture.
You are mixing all sorts of things together. First of all, it's clear that for you the distinction between "legal" and "illegal" is irrelevant. That's at least honest, as you do not hide between the BS fig leaf of being just against "illegal immigration", but apparently want all the latinos gone. I have a deep repulsion for the term illegal applied to immigration, because it is used as a moral judgment, to present them as they were criminals. However, the status of legal or illegal immigrant has nothing to do with the high concept of justice, but it only describes the immigrant status in relation to the law that is in place at a certain time. A law that is only shaped by a series of concrete conveniences, all far away from any ideal of justice. It's clear that with today's laws, the large majority of US citizens would all be descendants of illegal immigrants. This is just to put things in perspective.
Now back to the concrete issues, those that you contemptuously call "anchors", are US citizens as much as you and I. So, I'm sorry but you have the same right to cut their benefits as they have to cut yours. US citizens who, unlike the majority, all grew up in extremely precarious conditions, with undocumented parents bringing home meager pays and who were always one unlucky encounter away from being deported. In fact, as you might now, an American citizen cannot sponsor her/his parents before reaching the age of 21.
You are right to rant against the social costs caused by this system, you are just mistaken in choosing your target. You are blaming the victims of the system, those that are the cannon fodder for the US economy. Do you really think that whatever little welfare state and federal governments hand out to immigrants, they do it out of the goodness of their hearts? It is another classic example of how in our country, profits are privatized and costs are socialized. There are large economic interests that want to keep the status quo. Too many employers love to have these modern slaves, a workforce that has no legal rights, that can be paid a misery, provided with no benefits and that can be forced to work as much and as hard as they desire, because if anyone disagrees, his life and family can be fucked up with a simple call. It is exactly like the Walmart model: the employers of immigrants do not want to pay them even enough to cover basic survival needs, i.e., the cost of food and a roof (especially in California), let alone pay medical bills, and are more than happy to have the collectivity subsidize their cheap labor. Because, after all, even though there is no shortage of potential replacements, having workers dropping dead too frequently because of exhaustion and malnutrition would be bad from a PR standpoint.
Unless we are willing to recognize what the roots of the problems are, we will never solve them. In the US there is only one thing that is as sure as death, nothing is allowed to happen unless it benefits some moneyed interests. That's why Congress is able to decide unanimously in a couple of days to send billions of dollars in aid to a foreign country fighting a war we are not involved in, but it cannot fix immigration in decades. If immigration was regulated, employers will be forced to hire legally, providing adequate pay and benefits, so the immigrant workers would not be forced into welfare but would actually contribute to the system through payroll taxes. And they would live a normal life, as a productive part of society instead of being forced into phantom existence by a rotten system that needs them but doesn't want to acknowledge them
Your opinion is worth JACK SHIT!
There is NO distinction between Legal and Illegal. Illegal Aliens can invade the US wait 10 years and establish residency and get a Green Card that makes you LEGAL. Unauthorized pregnant women get everything free from Pre to Post Natal. Then they can legally collect everything that our CITIZENS CAN NOT because the are working. Doesn't that sound ironic:
We would have no problems with deport
https://citizenpath.com/paths-to-legal-status-undocumented/
https://curbelolaw.com/how-can-an-illegal-immigrant-become-legal-in-the-u-s/
There would not be an invasion problem if the Presidents had followed ther laws of Congress:
212(a)(4) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA), an individual seeking admission to the United States or seeking to adjust status to that of an individual lawfully admitted for permanent residence (green card) is INADMISSIBLE if the individual, "at the time of application for admission or adjustment of status, is likely at any time to become a public charge.”
Expedited Removal
8 U.S.C. § 1182 - U.S. Code Title 8. Aliens and ...
§ 1182(a)(7) (lack of valid entry documents),
(I) who is not in possession of a valid unexpired immigrant visa, reentry permit, border crossing identification card, or other valid entry document required by this chapter, and a valid unexpired passport s. The Border Officer can refuse the person’s entry and order him or her immediately removed from the U.S. After being removed from the country through expedited removal, you are barred from returning to the U.S. for 5 years or longer and do not have a right to counsel or to a hearing before an immigration judge.
We don't need new laws. We need to enforce the laws we already have. The system is not rotten. It's being ignored and YOU WANT TO INSTITUTIONALIZE your IGNOR ance.
The slave force is ruining our standard of living.
"Your opinion is worth JACK SHIT!" What a surprise, when confronted and not let free to spill your BS, you become unhinged. An opinion is as good as the facts on which it's based. Let see all the basic facts you get wrong to measure how much your opinion is worth.
Let's see:
1) "There is NO distinction between Legal and Illegal. " Only in your head.
2) "Illegal Aliens can invade the US wait 10 years and establish residency and get a Green Card that makes you LEGAL" Maybe in the science fiction movies you watch. If you are talking about immigration, and not space invasions, such a path does not in general exist. As it is clearly shown in the links you posted, not a good show of reading comprehension. DACA's goal was to create such a potential path for a restricted category, dreamers, but its destiny is still up in the air. In general cases a path to legal status is possible only through marriage with a citizen/permanent residency and is far from automatic. Parents sponsored by a citizen child need to wait at least 21 years, so your "10 years wait" is another piece of royal BS.
3) Let's not forget the gem with which you introduced yourself in your first post "Is Biden leaving the Border open because there will be more people who will vote for an Open Border?". Either you don't know that immigrants cannot vote, only citizens can, or you willfully ignore it to justfy your rants.
Feel free to go back to your wet dreams of mass deportations, I won't interrupt them anymore.