I’d be interested to hear what you think of this: From a military legal worker:
I'm seeing a lot of ignorance and misinformation flying around about what happened in Kenosha, and I'm going to set the record straight from a professional legal position... as well as from a former military position. I'm going to explain some things from a more technical angle derived from my many years as a paralegal and from my experience working in federal criminal justice and prosecution.
Legally, if you are in the process of a commission of a crime, it negates your ability to claim self defense if you kill someone. As in, it can't even be entered as your official defense in court. It is similar to getting rear-ended at a red light through zero fault of your own, but you were driving without a license or insurance. It automatically makes you at fault because you weren't even legally allowed to be driving.
That 17 year old in Kenosha had committed two crimes and was not even legally allowed to open carry the rifle he used to shoot three people. This means that he legally cannot claim self defense.
Another key discussion is the Castle Doctrine. Some of you may be vaguely familiar with it, as it is what allows you to use deadly force when someone comes into your house unlawfully, etc. But there are some finer points most people don't realize that you generally have to do some formal legal studies to know.
First, as soon as someone sets foot inside the threshold of your home uninvited that you believe intends to commit a crime, you can legally use deadly force and it is immediately considered self defense, even if they haven't made any violent threats or actions towards harming you.
This is because in every instance outside your home, you are required to retreat and extricate yourself from a dangerous situation if possible. It is a legal mandate, not a suggestion. Your home is considered the final retreat point, and legally you should be safe in your "Castle." There is nowhere else to retreat to, etc. This is why you are able to immediately use deadly force.
However, it is NOT to protect your property, it is for protecting your LIFE. And once the burglar, for instance, has left your home... the threat to your life is considered neutralized, and deadly force is no longer authorized. So if a burglar runs out the door and down the street with your TV, you are no longer allowed to shoot after them because they are not threatening your life. You call the police, you file a claim with your insurance, and you get a new TV. If you shoot a burglar in the back down the street, you can and should be charged with murder.
While you are out in PUBLIC, this means a lot of things obviously. It means that there is far more scrutiny and boxes that must be checked in order to claim self defense. You must be in IMMINENT danger of losing life and limb. Getting into an argument and feeling scared of being punched by an unarmed person? Not likely to be a situation where deadly force is authorized. You MUST retreat.
If someone shoots at you or pulls a knife on you in the street, that is deadly force and can be met with deadly force. But if the person is unarmed, you cannot shoot them because you're afraid of a little scuffle. That is why Rittenhouse illegally shot the first protester, and it is one of the many reasons it cannot be considered self defense. The man threw a plastic bag with trash in it at him AND MISSED, and Rittenhouse shot him. He chased his victim and instigated a fight by brandishing and flagging people with his rifle, because he is an untrained idiot with a gun. The protester was not a threat, and even if he was, all he had to do was retreat back to the police line. He rushed at protesters with a gun drawn to pick a fight, and people are acting as if he were just there to keep the peace.
He fired INTO A CROWD, and it's a miracle he didn't hit more people. More people that hadn't thrown a plastic bag. More people that were just trying to protest police brutality, which is a real issue in this country.
And then when he did finally run away, some more protesters attempted to subdue him after he had already murdered someone, he tripped, and shot two people trying to stop him from shooting others.
The fact that the police didn't arrest him and take him into custody right then and there, even if they suspected it could be self defense, is a grave issue with that police department.
I could further dissect this situation, but for now I'm going to end with people passing around misinformation about the victims being "criminals so they deserved it."
First, there are no actual records of Jacob Blake or the people shot by Rittenhouse being in the official sex offender's registry. None of them raped a 14 year old girl years ago, that is complete fabrication being purposely spread by right wing extremist sites in order to try and justify the shootings.
Jacob Blake was indeed awaiting trial for sexual assault and trespassing, and did have a warrant for his arrest. It was not assault on a child, because that is a different charge with a different title. On the charging document, it would literally say that it was against a child. From what is publicly known, he allegedly broke into an ex girlfriend's house and allegedly assaulted HER, but he is innocent until proven guilty, and still deserves his day in court. He could truly be innocent.
Rittenhouse's victims do not appear to have had any record, and even if they did, he couldn't have known that at the time. You cannot insist a shoot was justified AFTER the fact because "that person was a criminal." Criminals have rights too, whether you like it or not, and it is enshrined in the very documents that built our country. If you don't like the constitution and bill of rights, I don't know what to tell you.
This is also not MY OPINION, this is literally how the criminal justice system and our laws work. I hold a degree in paralegal studies and served 8 years as an Army paralegal. I've worked for the criminal division in the Chicago US Attorney's Office, and currently work in federal law enforcement. This is what I do for a living, and I am not pulling this out of my ass, and my knowlege is a culmination of working in the field and being passionate about justice for 16 years. I'd be happy to send you sources and opines and case law and statutes if you need it. I did not get this from "mainstream media," and I am not brainwashed by the left. I'm an independent progressive.
May he face justice for what he did, and may we find a way to get on common ground before more fuses to this powder keg are lit.
You are a moron. An obviously well educated moron but still a moron because you made assertions that are total horse shit which the judge had already addressed in jury instruction
Did you read that this was someone else words?! I think it’s wrong but I was looking for Matt’s insights. I think you should read and think before you start insulting people
You quoted a moron, someone who obviously spent the time taking a daily bath in the CNN sewage instead of watching the trial as it unfolded. Your quote would only make sense if we assume that the judge, prosecutors, defense lawyers all were completely ignorant of the Wisconsin laws applying to self defense, firearms etc..
Your facts are way, way off. Please just go by the trial footage and the transcript because wherever you are getting your facts is garbage, at least as it pertains to this case.
And I hate being that guy but you Didn’t attend law school. I did. I question whether you are even ethically allowed to comment about this or any case as if if you are not a licensed attorney. It’s smells of putting yourself out there and a legal expert. You are not. Your training was not that extensive, although you obviously have experience. Maybe go to law school, go massively in debt and you can be at trial attorney and you can spout off all day about the law. But a paralegal is not a lawyer. They are lawyer support. And if you were an attorney, you’d still have your facts wrong.
For what it’s worth, under your hypothetical factual situation, your legal reasoning would be pretty good, but your analogy about driving a car is a weird one. You talk about felony murder, which is when in the commission of a felony, a death occurs. The person committing a felony can be charged with murder in that case under the theory that but for the felony, the victim would be alive. That’s different from your car analogy. In that scenario you still aren’t responsible for crimes you did not cause, but you would still be on the hook for those you did. So you would be in trouble for a the invalid license but that doesn’t make you responsible for any other violations you did not commit. So you WOULD NOT be I trouble for the read ending and the person who rear ended you would still be in trouble. It’s a weird analogy that didn’t fit.
Furthermore, you act like this wasn’t covered in the trial. You don’t seem to be familiar with the actual trial. Rittenhouse was not illegally carrying a weapon. That came down to barrel length. His barrel was the correct length. That’s why that count was tossed, because if the judge didn’t toss it, then the appeals court would have and vacated the juries verdict.
You’d know that if you were a trained jurist. Law school is where you learn such things which is why you shouldn’t be commenting on things you aren’t familiar with, especially if you haven’t taken the time to actually watch the trial.
I’m to busy to chop up your argument. It’s factually incorrect which is why your legal reasoning is so off. You are applying what little law you understand to a set of facts that weren’t the facts presented at the trial. Wherever you got your facts, I doubt the person giving them to you was under oath. The witnesses at trial were under oath, which means that there are consequences for not telling the truth. That’s why you should stick to the trial testimony for you fact pattern.
My grandmother’s familiar saying was, “Ignorance is bliss”. She had a point, because most “common” people accept this notion as part of their daily reality. They have learned to do so by watching what “their” governments do against those who seek information that the powerful wish to hide from us.
• That is why they need to silence our messenger Julian Assange.
• That is why The Establishment continues to cover up its murder of the only American president, who challenged the might and will of the “deep state”, namely, the Central Intelligence Agency.
Well paralegal... watch the videos which you obviously haven't; even better watch the court case.
Your 2x claims of crimes are factually wrong, and if you read something other than whatever you are you would know....
They found 2 laws on the books one said it was a misdemeanor, and the other said it was legal, after finding that out the prosecutor openly stated that they conflict the court had to throw them out because a law can't be applied if they explicitly conflict. The state doesn't get to pick when something is legal it either is or it isn't. YOU SHOULD KNOW THIS IF YOUR CLAIM OF LEGAL KNOWLEDGE IS TRUE
He didn't randomly shoot into a crowd, WATCH THE VIDEO.
Rosenbaum was released earlier that day from a mental ward having been sent there multiple times for violence against his partner.
Rosenbaum (again released after violent actions) sets a container on fire and pushes it towards a group of people. KR and others put the fire out and didn't touch his weapon, Rosenbaum makes death threats against KR if he finds him alone. KR leaves and later that night Rosenbaum approaches him, KR again doesn't go for his weapon and correctly follows the castle doctrine and starts running away from the instigator Rosenbaum. Rosenbaum then runs KR down from behind, KR hadn't used his gun at all till now. Rosenbaum takes KR to the ground and tries to take the gun away from him. Now is when KR first points his weapon at anyone shooting Rosenbaum. WHY DON'T YOU KNOW THIS?
Wisconsin law allows his weapon to be carried. I suggest you refer to the transcript of the trial. Weapon and curfew violations were immediately tossed by the Judge. The transcript, interrogatories and videos will clear up any misinformation you have received.
It's informative to read the "legalities" comments on the posts. I feel rather than focusing on this issue, Matt is attempting to bring our attention to what the mainstream media (add politicians & so many more) continues to do on a daily & VERY purposeful basis. Besides constantly keeping us distracted... that would be insure we all stay divided & in our separate corners. Put a LABEL on people, groups, organizations etc as being the Bad Guys, the "Enemy(ies)" however & whenever possible if they see an opportunity to do so. Thus keeping us all from really looking, listening, understanding, coming together on ANYTHING these days. As my sister often says..."the military mentality". So sad & heartbreaking to not see a light at the end of the tunnel for continuation of this in our peoples, communities, country & world. A "happy hippie" raised in the 60s, I so hope some day we can as the old song goes "Come on people now, let's come together, try to love one another right now". John Lennon's "Imagine" is also a great lesson we could all use & learn from right now. Please stop allowing this to happen to us. Love you & your message Matt.
This really isn't new. This goes back as long as people went on trial, individuals who have nothing at stake take sides, stand around the courthouse and reporters ask their ill-informed opinions. My girlfriend and I have been watching documentaries about true-crimes for decades and the one thing that they all share is a) poor police work and (b) media stories that are based on that poor police work and uncorroborated statements from anyone. This appears to be standard for most countries as Netflix has a number of true-crime documentaries from around the world and their police and media are just as bad as ours. We're in "good" company.
My guess is that if you did a deep investigation into reporting through the ages, you'd find that news outlets were always willing to provide retractions for an incorrect story as the need to be first was always the priority. Of course today we have the immediacy of digital that makes corroboration even less likely, so I can accept that you'd find it worse today, but then you'd have the data to back it up.
We need to be careful not to confuse our current judicial system with justice for all or the protection of the public good. Like OJ, I don't think this fellows legal problems are over. I expect there will be civil suits filed by the families of the victims. I am worried that his current hero status will encourage Kyle and others that vigilanteism is a noble and patriotic duty, and cause more bloodshed.
I am shocked, Shocked, there is Terrible reporting going on .. . but the Rittenhouse trial was a steaming judicial shatshow any way you cut it, Ahab.
[At one point, Judge Schroeder actually interrupted the proceedings to provide expert ballistic testimony for the defense on the difference between 'hollow point' and 'full metal jacket' ammunition. .. He ain't no 'victim'!]
So, no, one can be shocked, Shocked, at both the verdict and the stupid 'establishment media narrative' .. . assuming the ubiquitous 'lets go Brandon' Fox news network is not considered established media.
*a #freeasfuck Kyle Rittenhouse T-shirt should go well with Judge Schroeder's MAGA hat. ..
Thank you Matt. I am also so happy that you maintain your sense of humor.
All these negative and poisonous stories you have to deal with would otherwise sicken you...
I’d be interested to hear what you think of this: From a military legal worker:
I'm seeing a lot of ignorance and misinformation flying around about what happened in Kenosha, and I'm going to set the record straight from a professional legal position... as well as from a former military position. I'm going to explain some things from a more technical angle derived from my many years as a paralegal and from my experience working in federal criminal justice and prosecution.
Legally, if you are in the process of a commission of a crime, it negates your ability to claim self defense if you kill someone. As in, it can't even be entered as your official defense in court. It is similar to getting rear-ended at a red light through zero fault of your own, but you were driving without a license or insurance. It automatically makes you at fault because you weren't even legally allowed to be driving.
That 17 year old in Kenosha had committed two crimes and was not even legally allowed to open carry the rifle he used to shoot three people. This means that he legally cannot claim self defense.
Another key discussion is the Castle Doctrine. Some of you may be vaguely familiar with it, as it is what allows you to use deadly force when someone comes into your house unlawfully, etc. But there are some finer points most people don't realize that you generally have to do some formal legal studies to know.
First, as soon as someone sets foot inside the threshold of your home uninvited that you believe intends to commit a crime, you can legally use deadly force and it is immediately considered self defense, even if they haven't made any violent threats or actions towards harming you.
This is because in every instance outside your home, you are required to retreat and extricate yourself from a dangerous situation if possible. It is a legal mandate, not a suggestion. Your home is considered the final retreat point, and legally you should be safe in your "Castle." There is nowhere else to retreat to, etc. This is why you are able to immediately use deadly force.
However, it is NOT to protect your property, it is for protecting your LIFE. And once the burglar, for instance, has left your home... the threat to your life is considered neutralized, and deadly force is no longer authorized. So if a burglar runs out the door and down the street with your TV, you are no longer allowed to shoot after them because they are not threatening your life. You call the police, you file a claim with your insurance, and you get a new TV. If you shoot a burglar in the back down the street, you can and should be charged with murder.
While you are out in PUBLIC, this means a lot of things obviously. It means that there is far more scrutiny and boxes that must be checked in order to claim self defense. You must be in IMMINENT danger of losing life and limb. Getting into an argument and feeling scared of being punched by an unarmed person? Not likely to be a situation where deadly force is authorized. You MUST retreat.
If someone shoots at you or pulls a knife on you in the street, that is deadly force and can be met with deadly force. But if the person is unarmed, you cannot shoot them because you're afraid of a little scuffle. That is why Rittenhouse illegally shot the first protester, and it is one of the many reasons it cannot be considered self defense. The man threw a plastic bag with trash in it at him AND MISSED, and Rittenhouse shot him. He chased his victim and instigated a fight by brandishing and flagging people with his rifle, because he is an untrained idiot with a gun. The protester was not a threat, and even if he was, all he had to do was retreat back to the police line. He rushed at protesters with a gun drawn to pick a fight, and people are acting as if he were just there to keep the peace.
He fired INTO A CROWD, and it's a miracle he didn't hit more people. More people that hadn't thrown a plastic bag. More people that were just trying to protest police brutality, which is a real issue in this country.
And then when he did finally run away, some more protesters attempted to subdue him after he had already murdered someone, he tripped, and shot two people trying to stop him from shooting others.
The fact that the police didn't arrest him and take him into custody right then and there, even if they suspected it could be self defense, is a grave issue with that police department.
I could further dissect this situation, but for now I'm going to end with people passing around misinformation about the victims being "criminals so they deserved it."
First, there are no actual records of Jacob Blake or the people shot by Rittenhouse being in the official sex offender's registry. None of them raped a 14 year old girl years ago, that is complete fabrication being purposely spread by right wing extremist sites in order to try and justify the shootings.
Jacob Blake was indeed awaiting trial for sexual assault and trespassing, and did have a warrant for his arrest. It was not assault on a child, because that is a different charge with a different title. On the charging document, it would literally say that it was against a child. From what is publicly known, he allegedly broke into an ex girlfriend's house and allegedly assaulted HER, but he is innocent until proven guilty, and still deserves his day in court. He could truly be innocent.
Rittenhouse's victims do not appear to have had any record, and even if they did, he couldn't have known that at the time. You cannot insist a shoot was justified AFTER the fact because "that person was a criminal." Criminals have rights too, whether you like it or not, and it is enshrined in the very documents that built our country. If you don't like the constitution and bill of rights, I don't know what to tell you.
This is also not MY OPINION, this is literally how the criminal justice system and our laws work. I hold a degree in paralegal studies and served 8 years as an Army paralegal. I've worked for the criminal division in the Chicago US Attorney's Office, and currently work in federal law enforcement. This is what I do for a living, and I am not pulling this out of my ass, and my knowlege is a culmination of working in the field and being passionate about justice for 16 years. I'd be happy to send you sources and opines and case law and statutes if you need it. I did not get this from "mainstream media," and I am not brainwashed by the left. I'm an independent progressive.
May he face justice for what he did, and may we find a way to get on common ground before more fuses to this powder keg are lit.
This has been my Ted Talk.
You are a moron. An obviously well educated moron but still a moron because you made assertions that are total horse shit which the judge had already addressed in jury instruction
Did you read that this was someone else words?! I think it’s wrong but I was looking for Matt’s insights. I think you should read and think before you start insulting people
I did. Didn’t need to go to law school to understand.
You quoted a moron, someone who obviously spent the time taking a daily bath in the CNN sewage instead of watching the trial as it unfolded. Your quote would only make sense if we assume that the judge, prosecutors, defense lawyers all were completely ignorant of the Wisconsin laws applying to self defense, firearms etc..
Your facts are way, way off. Please just go by the trial footage and the transcript because wherever you are getting your facts is garbage, at least as it pertains to this case.
And I hate being that guy but you Didn’t attend law school. I did. I question whether you are even ethically allowed to comment about this or any case as if if you are not a licensed attorney. It’s smells of putting yourself out there and a legal expert. You are not. Your training was not that extensive, although you obviously have experience. Maybe go to law school, go massively in debt and you can be at trial attorney and you can spout off all day about the law. But a paralegal is not a lawyer. They are lawyer support. And if you were an attorney, you’d still have your facts wrong.
For what it’s worth, under your hypothetical factual situation, your legal reasoning would be pretty good, but your analogy about driving a car is a weird one. You talk about felony murder, which is when in the commission of a felony, a death occurs. The person committing a felony can be charged with murder in that case under the theory that but for the felony, the victim would be alive. That’s different from your car analogy. In that scenario you still aren’t responsible for crimes you did not cause, but you would still be on the hook for those you did. So you would be in trouble for a the invalid license but that doesn’t make you responsible for any other violations you did not commit. So you WOULD NOT be I trouble for the read ending and the person who rear ended you would still be in trouble. It’s a weird analogy that didn’t fit.
Furthermore, you act like this wasn’t covered in the trial. You don’t seem to be familiar with the actual trial. Rittenhouse was not illegally carrying a weapon. That came down to barrel length. His barrel was the correct length. That’s why that count was tossed, because if the judge didn’t toss it, then the appeals court would have and vacated the juries verdict.
You’d know that if you were a trained jurist. Law school is where you learn such things which is why you shouldn’t be commenting on things you aren’t familiar with, especially if you haven’t taken the time to actually watch the trial.
I’m to busy to chop up your argument. It’s factually incorrect which is why your legal reasoning is so off. You are applying what little law you understand to a set of facts that weren’t the facts presented at the trial. Wherever you got your facts, I doubt the person giving them to you was under oath. The witnesses at trial were under oath, which means that there are consequences for not telling the truth. That’s why you should stick to the trial testimony for you fact pattern.
Great -- Perhaps another topic for your Ted talks...
Mass Murder, Regicide, Fratricide, Torture, Lying, Cheating, Stealing racing toward Armageddon
CIA ‘Reminds You of the Glory of the American Experiment’
CIA 'Reminds You of the Glory of the American Experiment' - This Can't Be Happening! (thiscantbehappening.net)
https://thiscantbehappening.net/cia-reminds-you-of-the-glory-of-the-american-experiment/
POSTED ONNOVEMBER 19, 2021 BY RON RIDENOUR
My grandmother’s familiar saying was, “Ignorance is bliss”. She had a point, because most “common” people accept this notion as part of their daily reality. They have learned to do so by watching what “their” governments do against those who seek information that the powerful wish to hide from us.
• That is why they need to silence our messenger Julian Assange.
• That is why The Establishment continues to cover up its murder of the only American president, who challenged the might and will of the “deep state”, namely, the Central Intelligence Agency.
Well paralegal... watch the videos which you obviously haven't; even better watch the court case.
Your 2x claims of crimes are factually wrong, and if you read something other than whatever you are you would know....
They found 2 laws on the books one said it was a misdemeanor, and the other said it was legal, after finding that out the prosecutor openly stated that they conflict the court had to throw them out because a law can't be applied if they explicitly conflict. The state doesn't get to pick when something is legal it either is or it isn't. YOU SHOULD KNOW THIS IF YOUR CLAIM OF LEGAL KNOWLEDGE IS TRUE
He didn't randomly shoot into a crowd, WATCH THE VIDEO.
Rosenbaum was released earlier that day from a mental ward having been sent there multiple times for violence against his partner.
Rosenbaum (again released after violent actions) sets a container on fire and pushes it towards a group of people. KR and others put the fire out and didn't touch his weapon, Rosenbaum makes death threats against KR if he finds him alone. KR leaves and later that night Rosenbaum approaches him, KR again doesn't go for his weapon and correctly follows the castle doctrine and starts running away from the instigator Rosenbaum. Rosenbaum then runs KR down from behind, KR hadn't used his gun at all till now. Rosenbaum takes KR to the ground and tries to take the gun away from him. Now is when KR first points his weapon at anyone shooting Rosenbaum. WHY DON'T YOU KNOW THIS?
Wisconsin law allows his weapon to be carried. I suggest you refer to the transcript of the trial. Weapon and curfew violations were immediately tossed by the Judge. The transcript, interrogatories and videos will clear up any misinformation you have received.
It's informative to read the "legalities" comments on the posts. I feel rather than focusing on this issue, Matt is attempting to bring our attention to what the mainstream media (add politicians & so many more) continues to do on a daily & VERY purposeful basis. Besides constantly keeping us distracted... that would be insure we all stay divided & in our separate corners. Put a LABEL on people, groups, organizations etc as being the Bad Guys, the "Enemy(ies)" however & whenever possible if they see an opportunity to do so. Thus keeping us all from really looking, listening, understanding, coming together on ANYTHING these days. As my sister often says..."the military mentality". So sad & heartbreaking to not see a light at the end of the tunnel for continuation of this in our peoples, communities, country & world. A "happy hippie" raised in the 60s, I so hope some day we can as the old song goes "Come on people now, let's come together, try to love one another right now". John Lennon's "Imagine" is also a great lesson we could all use & learn from right now. Please stop allowing this to happen to us. Love you & your message Matt.
This really isn't new. This goes back as long as people went on trial, individuals who have nothing at stake take sides, stand around the courthouse and reporters ask their ill-informed opinions. My girlfriend and I have been watching documentaries about true-crimes for decades and the one thing that they all share is a) poor police work and (b) media stories that are based on that poor police work and uncorroborated statements from anyone. This appears to be standard for most countries as Netflix has a number of true-crime documentaries from around the world and their police and media are just as bad as ours. We're in "good" company.
My guess is that if you did a deep investigation into reporting through the ages, you'd find that news outlets were always willing to provide retractions for an incorrect story as the need to be first was always the priority. Of course today we have the immediacy of digital that makes corroboration even less likely, so I can accept that you'd find it worse today, but then you'd have the data to back it up.
We need to be careful not to confuse our current judicial system with justice for all or the protection of the public good. Like OJ, I don't think this fellows legal problems are over. I expect there will be civil suits filed by the families of the victims. I am worried that his current hero status will encourage Kyle and others that vigilanteism is a noble and patriotic duty, and cause more bloodshed.
I am shocked, Shocked, there is Terrible reporting going on .. . but the Rittenhouse trial was a steaming judicial shatshow any way you cut it, Ahab.
[At one point, Judge Schroeder actually interrupted the proceedings to provide expert ballistic testimony for the defense on the difference between 'hollow point' and 'full metal jacket' ammunition. .. He ain't no 'victim'!]
So, no, one can be shocked, Shocked, at both the verdict and the stupid 'establishment media narrative' .. . assuming the ubiquitous 'lets go Brandon' Fox news network is not considered established media.
*a #freeasfuck Kyle Rittenhouse T-shirt should go well with Judge Schroeder's MAGA hat. ..