Most interesting read - my first taste of Crane. He's got some chops. Looking forward to hearing thoughts from both of you. Very much appreciate the introduction!
I didn't really get the impression that Maggie had become a prostitute.
I thought she had just been "living in sin" with Pete.
Maggie's job as a seamstress in a sweat shop reminded me of that horrible fire at the Triangle Shirtwaist factory in the early 1900's. 146 of the workers died.
So, I watched Brad and the cartoon fan discuss the book, kind of. Very much appreciated Brad's introduction to Crane. But focusing on genre rather than the writing is, imho, a rookie error and big mistake. LOL to hear cartoon guy, who is never going to be compared to Tolstoy, critique the writing of writer who at twenty was, is and will be. Envy? is an ugly sentiment.
With some checking I learned that Crane was reading very early Tolstoy (Svestopol Sketches) translated into English, which is very different from mature Tolstoy, as well as Flaubert. Crane at twenty was about as far from a dummy as one can be and displayed a sensitivity that others, including cartoon guy, can only hope to match. Growing up in a home where parents grieved the loss of three children will do that
When Crane writes:
" The girl, Maggie, blossomed in a mud puddle." That line alone sent me straight to William Carlos Williams, Whitman, and others. I spent some time after the video, reading Crane's poetry - good, still too early to put alongside Whitman.
"She grew to be a most rare and wonderful production of a tenement district, a pretty girl" - Much weaker, but the necessary preamble to the following tour-de-force.
"When a child, playing and fighting with gamins in the street, dirt disguised her. Attired in tatters and grime, she went unseen."
This is lyric genius from a master - at twenty no less. Stunning.
"None of the dirt of Rum Alley seemed to be in her veins. The philosophers up-stairs, down-stairs and on the same floor, puzzled over it. There came a time, however, when the young men of the vicinity said:"
"Dat Johnson goil is a puty good looker." That juxtaposition pops the reader's balloon - propelling us to the totality of what Maggie, raised as she was, was ready to bring to the world." Crane's economy is on display with "....Rum Alley seemed to be in her veins." Craned could easily have opted for "penetrated her veins. Doing so would, however, have tempered the smash-mouth irony that immediately follows: "The philosophers, up-stairs, down-stairs and on the same floor, puzzled over it."
True to life. Nothing has changed. And in 1890, the chances of being orphaned, or falling into alcoholism, or just dying from the general filth of life, was significantly higher than it is today. Crane deserves tremendous credit, imho, for his unflinching reporting, and extraordinary ability to wax poetic and then drop the reader right into the muck.
No happy endings here, folks. No morality plays, just life. Took Hardy hundreds of pages to take us to the same place in Tess and Jude the Obscure. Great novella.
Many thanks to Brad and Matt for bringing Crane to my/our attention!!
yes we will do that when Matt is back from vacation, it was actually supposed to be Thursday's show but then we only got through half of Maggie in the first hour.
I misquoted. The actual beginning is better, tighter, more scary, mysterious. The product of editing to make it more urgent. Rather than "No one in the boat...", much better is "None of them...."
"None of them knew the colour of the sky. Their eyes glanced level, and were fastened upon the waves that swept toward them. These waves were of the hue of slate, save for the tops, which were of foaming white, and all of the men knew the colours of the sea. The horizon narrowed and widened, and dipped and rose, and at all times its edge was jagged with waves that seemed thrust up in points like rocks."
So "Maggie" was based on a real person, as I understand. I read that "The Open Boat" was based on a real shipwreck with Crane there in the boat rowing for their lives.
I don't know anything about Maggie being based on a real story, but as to the latter, yes, it was, we are also reading Stephen Crane's Own Story, a newspaper article he wrote about it (though it covers everything except the time in the boat, basically.)
I thought Red badge of courage was far better, but maybe because I’m a middle aged woman and struggle to understand what draws young men to war. It clicked for me from that book. But maybe that’s not a an apt portrayal of it. I connected with the mom and still feel deep sorrow thinking of Crane description of the tears running down her brown face as she talks with her son about his decision to go to war
the Frank Norris novel McTeague is incredible in that every character is a shallow stereotype. His wife is Swiss-German and seemingly not knowing any specific Swiss-German stereotypes she is just both Swiss and German and obsessively productive at manufacturing and also miserly about receiving as much interest as possible from an inheritance.
Maggie: A Girl of the Streets gave me the same hopeless, sinking feeling I felt at the end of Blind Date by Jerzy Kosinski, which seems thematically similar to The Open Boat, too. I never forgot that feeling perhaps you would only feel as a very young reader. I was wondering why the ending of that simple story hit me so hard. It took a while to make that connection because I have connections to those types of stories personally.
I read this book in college, and I remembered that it was sad, but I had completely forgotten that it was written in dialect. I liked it, because I could almost hear them speaking in my head. I did think immediately of Jimmy Cagney, Edward G. Robinson, & even Humphrey Bogart.
Most interesting read - my first taste of Crane. He's got some chops. Looking forward to hearing thoughts from both of you. Very much appreciate the introduction!
Maggie sounds like a bit of a romantic, despite her awful circumstances.
But then, who else would ever tell her "I'm stuck on your shape. It's outa sight!"?
That's one of my favorite lines!
I didn't really get the impression that Maggie had become a prostitute.
I thought she had just been "living in sin" with Pete.
Maggie's job as a seamstress in a sweat shop reminded me of that horrible fire at the Triangle Shirtwaist factory in the early 1900's. 146 of the workers died.
So, I watched Brad and the cartoon fan discuss the book, kind of. Very much appreciated Brad's introduction to Crane. But focusing on genre rather than the writing is, imho, a rookie error and big mistake. LOL to hear cartoon guy, who is never going to be compared to Tolstoy, critique the writing of writer who at twenty was, is and will be. Envy? is an ugly sentiment.
With some checking I learned that Crane was reading very early Tolstoy (Svestopol Sketches) translated into English, which is very different from mature Tolstoy, as well as Flaubert. Crane at twenty was about as far from a dummy as one can be and displayed a sensitivity that others, including cartoon guy, can only hope to match. Growing up in a home where parents grieved the loss of three children will do that
When Crane writes:
" The girl, Maggie, blossomed in a mud puddle." That line alone sent me straight to William Carlos Williams, Whitman, and others. I spent some time after the video, reading Crane's poetry - good, still too early to put alongside Whitman.
"She grew to be a most rare and wonderful production of a tenement district, a pretty girl" - Much weaker, but the necessary preamble to the following tour-de-force.
"When a child, playing and fighting with gamins in the street, dirt disguised her. Attired in tatters and grime, she went unseen."
This is lyric genius from a master - at twenty no less. Stunning.
"None of the dirt of Rum Alley seemed to be in her veins. The philosophers up-stairs, down-stairs and on the same floor, puzzled over it. There came a time, however, when the young men of the vicinity said:"
"Dat Johnson goil is a puty good looker." That juxtaposition pops the reader's balloon - propelling us to the totality of what Maggie, raised as she was, was ready to bring to the world." Crane's economy is on display with "....Rum Alley seemed to be in her veins." Craned could easily have opted for "penetrated her veins. Doing so would, however, have tempered the smash-mouth irony that immediately follows: "The philosophers, up-stairs, down-stairs and on the same floor, puzzled over it."
True to life. Nothing has changed. And in 1890, the chances of being orphaned, or falling into alcoholism, or just dying from the general filth of life, was significantly higher than it is today. Crane deserves tremendous credit, imho, for his unflinching reporting, and extraordinary ability to wax poetic and then drop the reader right into the muck.
No happy endings here, folks. No morality plays, just life. Took Hardy hundreds of pages to take us to the same place in Tess and Jude the Obscure. Great novella.
Many thanks to Brad and Matt for bringing Crane to my/our attention!!
I hope the collection by Stephen Crane includes "The Open Boat", a true horror story with one of the best opening lines ever,
"No one in the boat knew the color of the sky."
yes we will do that when Matt is back from vacation, it was actually supposed to be Thursday's show but then we only got through half of Maggie in the first hour.
I misquoted. The actual beginning is better, tighter, more scary, mysterious. The product of editing to make it more urgent. Rather than "No one in the boat...", much better is "None of them...."
"None of them knew the colour of the sky. Their eyes glanced level, and were fastened upon the waves that swept toward them. These waves were of the hue of slate, save for the tops, which were of foaming white, and all of the men knew the colours of the sea. The horizon narrowed and widened, and dipped and rose, and at all times its edge was jagged with waves that seemed thrust up in points like rocks."
It's definitely even stronger writing than Maggie, reflecting a more mature author who has found his style.
So "Maggie" was based on a real person, as I understand. I read that "The Open Boat" was based on a real shipwreck with Crane there in the boat rowing for their lives.
I don't know anything about Maggie being based on a real story, but as to the latter, yes, it was, we are also reading Stephen Crane's Own Story, a newspaper article he wrote about it (though it covers everything except the time in the boat, basically.)
Reading it again, the closest coparison is Jack London.
You two are very good together.
So far, so good. Looking forward to more.
I thought Red badge of courage was far better, but maybe because I’m a middle aged woman and struggle to understand what draws young men to war. It clicked for me from that book. But maybe that’s not a an apt portrayal of it. I connected with the mom and still feel deep sorrow thinking of Crane description of the tears running down her brown face as she talks with her son about his decision to go to war
I thought the stereotypes were canned, especially Maggie’s parents. It was almost like Crane had an Irish stereotype in his head.
the Frank Norris novel McTeague is incredible in that every character is a shallow stereotype. His wife is Swiss-German and seemingly not knowing any specific Swiss-German stereotypes she is just both Swiss and German and obsessively productive at manufacturing and also miserly about receiving as much interest as possible from an inheritance.
Maggie: A Girl of the Streets gave me the same hopeless, sinking feeling I felt at the end of Blind Date by Jerzy Kosinski, which seems thematically similar to The Open Boat, too. I never forgot that feeling perhaps you would only feel as a very young reader. I was wondering why the ending of that simple story hit me so hard. It took a while to make that connection because I have connections to those types of stories personally.
The death of Maggie's little brother was there and gone so quickly!
It was kind of a shock, the way it was written.
I read this book in college, and I remembered that it was sad, but I had completely forgotten that it was written in dialect. I liked it, because I could almost hear them speaking in my head. I did think immediately of Jimmy Cagney, Edward G. Robinson, & even Humphrey Bogart.
Loved the clips!