Lindsey Graham and Dick Blumenthal visited Zelensky the day before the attacks. These warmonger ghouls cheer for slaughter that will never affect them. Send them to the front lines ASAP and the war ends tomorrow.
If it's the same stories I'm thinking about, the reporting was proved not just false, but propaganda for the USSR, and NYT still haven't given the Pulitzer back.
Can we at least get the analogies right?/ Russia’s invasion was Ukraine’s Pearl Harbor. Wiping out a third of Russia’s strategic air fleet is Ukraine’s Midway.
Well, the Ukrainians are just trying to get up to speed when it comes to gaslighting Americans. Israel has been buying U.S. politicians and orchestrating PR campaigns in the U.S. for over sixty years, so they have a lot of practice.
Here, we have an example of a clumsy Racket "News" gaslighter incorrectly deploying the term "gaslighting."
(Mr. or Mrs.?) DancingintheAshes is conflating a group of people who are defending themselves from and authoritarian, aggressor nation who has illegally invaded their country and has proceeded to murder more than a million of them.
This is not gaslighting.
This is gaslighting:
"...In a segment titled, “Ukraine burns Putin, but also schools Trump with surprise drone attack,” MSNBC hosts Nicolle Wallace and Rachel Maddow chatted giddily after a paradigm-shifting operation by Volodymyr Zelensky that left the world on the edge of nuclear exchange."
1,000% correct. I have been saying this for a long time. Nowadays we normal people are fools to believe any countries mouthpiece as well as the MSM fake news. It’s a very challenging time to try and decipher truth from fiction because their is so much fiction.
True. This sort of exaggeration is always the case in war. The true number may actually be zero irreparable aircraft, which is why Russia hasn't bothered to respond.
They claimed to have attacked, not destroyed, 41 aircraft. Here’s the Beeb:
“Videos verified by the BBC show damaged aircraft at the Olenegorsk air base in Murmansk and the Belaya air base in Irkutsk.
“The strategic missile-carrying bombers targeted in the attack are thought to be – among others - the Tu-95, Tu-22 and Tu-160. Repairing them will be difficult and, because none are still in production, replacing them is impossible.
“Radar satellite imagery shared by Capella Space reveals at least four badly damaged or destroyed Russian long-range bombers at Belaya airbase. This matches Ukrainian drone footage also showing an attack on a Tu-95 bomber.”
From a person using Rachel Maddow/CIA inspired, glib talking point analogies..?
Designed for the barely sentient to insert, to make them look "clever"...
Russias invasion Was the desired response from The CIA and the US War hawks.
The US helped overthrow Yanukovych in 2014 and picking the "winner" to goad Russia into doing what their own retiring consultants had been telling them would happen.
Poor little peace loving Russia! Constantly being “goaded” into attacking its neighbors. These provocations have been going on for 700 years, leaving Russia currently 6,000 miles long, but working on 6,500 miles.
I’ve always thought of the CIA as inept; but evidently they’re so diabolically clever they can make Russia dance like a puppet.
Michael, the “today” MLK was referring to in that speech was April 4, 1967 — the height of LBJ’s Vietnam War.
MLK’s statement was very controversial even then, but applying it to today’s world is utter nonsense, given the violence perpetrated by Vladimir Putin in Ukraine.
A better analogy is that this attack was Ukraine’s version of Trenton. But, it stops there, because there is no future Yorktown on the horizon for Ukraine. Just pain and suffering unless they can negotiate an end to this war.
Midway was a decisive battle that permanently shifted the balance of forces between the belligerents. This was a raid that knocked off 5-10 strategic bombers in a war that is being fought between armies and their tactical aviation assets. Furthermore, the Japanese raid on December 7, 1941 wasn't immediately followed up by the Japanese invasion and occupation of 1/3 of the Hawaiian Islands. You'd need that to happen for your analogy of the Russian invasion to Pearl Harbor to make sense.
Midway is where we destroyed 4 of Japan's best carriers (Kaga, Akagi, Soryu and Hiryu), and sent their compliment of airmen, sailors, and experienced flight crews to the bottom. They never recovered.
That was 83 years ago today. Fifteen minutes ago in the grand scheme of things.
Putin should be asking himself, what else do the Ukrainians have up their sleeves.
It’s not that Ukrainians are smarter than Russians. It’s that smart Russians aren’t helping the war effort: because they understand that a Putin victory in Ukraine would be a defeat for Russia. Just as a victory by the Junta in the Falklands War would have been a defeat for Argentina, destroying all hopes for a transition to democracy.
Whether or not Trump knew about the attack in advance, it was very much in sync with his recent harsh rhetoric about Putin. Trump recognizes (and may have always recognized) that Putin, who responded to Trump’s peace efforts by escalating attacks on civilians, is the main obstacle to peace. Putin will agree to peace only when he starts losing ground.
You know, the “smart” people who all do as they’re told and believe whatever makes them more money no matter the risk, in support of the same international rules based order that is deciding everything we see in the shit-media and all the politicians we are allowed to vote for. Because they haven’t killed enough of us yet. For democracy.
I'm guessing Ukraine did not act alone. The whole thing stinks of MI6 or other possible provocateur involvement.
After all, isn't the EU putatively against settling the conflict? Haven't they been promising to "continue supporting"?
That Zelenskyy stated that the effort had been 18 months in the planning speaks volumes. That means it's been in the works since January 2024.
It seems extremely unlikely that no-one in the US government (read: CIA, etc.) was unaware of this plan. Back in January 2024, candidate Trump was still besieged with lawfare and, in my guess at least, people in the WH probably figured they'd have victory in November.
The abject cluelessness -- or utter confabulation -- of people like Maddow and Wallace is starkly illustrated by the utterance, "Trump is moving the country away from what the people want it to be."
These people really are ghouls and lunatics.
Here's a question: Putin engaged in a barrage of missile strikes the week prior. Is it possible he got wind of this (i.e., Ukrainian) attack and was looking to pre-empt it?
Heh. The Zelenskyy regime is corrupt and ham-fisted but there are a lot of sharp people in Ukraine. But, yes, the regime itself is rotten to the core.
The part that got me was the logistics: getting the drones within striking distance and in particular the communications network needed to control them.
I'm pretty sure Ukraine has been relying on (Musk's) Starlink [sp?] for a lot of their communications. But would that network coverage extend deep into Russia.
Sorting out the logistics of the attack might reveal who and what resources were used.
Given the EU's recent vocal support for the conflict, this attack seems primarily an attack on the peace initiatives pushed by the Trump admin. The planes and airfields attacked were not, as far as I can tell, really needed by Russia for the Ukraine conflict -- so this attack is as such a clear escalation and extension of the conflict. Which might be what the Neocons and the EU want.
yes, this isn't a "bombers" war, it's a drone-motorcycle-humvee-soldier war. if Russia used their bombers on Kiev it would take five minutes to destroy utterly
Excellent point. Why are others not discussing this? If we could flatten Baghdad 20 years ago using 20 years ago weaponry, Russia could obliterate the city without using nukes.
Remember when the noble countries of the west hated Ukraine, and consistently ranked it among the most corrupt nations (worse than Putin's Russia)? I know it's hard to recall things from 5 years ago--especially for professional media.
I know you are trying to be snarky, but this is actually correct. He doesn't want to escalate into a larger worldwide conflict and he doesn't want to make Ukraine into a failed state on his own border when the war is over.
No, I am largely correct. You're out of your mind if you believe Ukraine would have done anything but surrender after a couple of months of grinding death if the.US didn't get involved immediately. What sort of show of strength did UK display after Crimea was annexed? This is a proxy war waged by a regency government for a cabal of progressive idiots and neocon, mostly Zionist bureaucrats. I don't care about the Zionism but let's not kid ourselves where the nation building that W repudiated publicly and privately backed to the hilt came from. We are the sugar daddy to Zelensky's sexy "democracy first" girl.
You must be either a Russian or something similarly ignorant of history and possessing a low IQ to believe that Russia could force anyone this side of five Georgians mounted on bicycles to surrender.
At least not until grinding through the entirety of Ukraine's civilian population. Which they would do without batting an eye.
We suffer 10:1 casualties and are a tenth the population of our enemy, but we are winning. At least me and my corrupt friends here are - sorry every man in your family is dead now.
Cash me leaving last helicopter out of the country like Ghani - the briefcase overflowing with USDs is backpay - NOT a testament to my corruption.
Noticing that Big Daddy Vladimir and his army of Manly Macho Men Of Manliness hasn’t won a war in three years against a country 1/3 its size — and that Russia STARTED this war and wants to invade all of Europe — is anathema to Taibbi and his myrmidumbs here. Big Macho Men always win everything and when they don’t it’s unfair to hurt their pweshush widdle fee-fees by telling said Big Machi Men that they haven’t won.
Karen cheers nuclear destruction of all life on earth just to spite Trump and men in general.
a truly sad and pathetic human being.
I’m sorry someone hurt you Karen, but why must the every living creature suffer and die for your revenge.
for the love of God and all of humanity, please stop your hatred. the world is now closer to nuclear war than any time in our history and you are gloating?
I am not cheering nuclear destruction but I still fail to see your posituonnas anything but ‘the dictators always win and can kill anyone they want to.’ Putin invaded Ukraine and Ukraine is fighting for their lives. Tell Putin to withdraw his troops.
Bill Clinton started this war and it has been continued by a bunch of evil f@cks ever since. Yeah, maybe Putin can't "win" the war by occupying Ukraine, but the damage they can do is immense. If you need historical examples think, Afghanistan and Iraq for recent US 'wins'.
I am brave enough to face a place full of wife-beaters. You piss yourself n terror if there’s more than one woman in any room and especially if she’s past age 20. Your pee pee quits working at the site of a woman with her own driver’s license.
While you could go back to WWII when many (the majority?) of Western Ukrainians supported the NAZIs (Biden's UkroNAZIs are their ideological descendants), the proximal cause was the Orange Revolution in the winter of 2004/2005. The CIA overturned the election of Yanukovych (claiming the election was corrupt-- imagine, corruption in Ukraine!) and essentially installed Yushchenko, an American trained banker married to an American citizen, a State/CIA official. When Obama put VP Biden in charge of Ukraine in 2009, UkroNAZIs came to power and de-Russification began in earnest-- eradication of Russian language, Russian culture and ethic Russian Ukrainians began. Yushchenko named Stepan Bandera "Hero of Ukraine", however with Biden (and Nuland, Pyatt, etc), the CIA and UkroNAZIs running Ukraine, Yushchenko re-ran for President in 2009/2010 in an UN-PROCTORED election and received <7% of the vote. Yanukovych once again won. Despite American handlers-- the Podesta Group, Greg Craig (Obama's council) and Paul Manafort-- US Puppet Yanukovych made the blatant mistake of playing the EU against Russia. Putin, with much more to lose, gave him a much better deal, and within three months Yanukovych was overthrown by Biden and the UkroNAZIs in Maidan February, 2014, and the Ukrainian shelling of the Donbas started to kill off ethnic Russian Ukrainians who supported the democratically elected Yanukovych.
Much is made of the 50,000 or so demonstrators in Maidan (out of Ukraine's 45 million), "mostly peaceful" (the hundreds shot but less than 100 killed by UkroNAZIs), possibly funded by USAID? Nuland claimed the US had spent $5 billion for the Coup. The only popular President elected since then was TV star Zelensky on his "Peace with Moscow" platform, quickly discarded as were future Elections. Ukraine is now an "American Democracy!" (freed like Libya).
Then why is the Ukrainian army giving the Russian army--an army that by multiple degrees is much larger and much better armed than they are---a difficult time of it on the battlefield?
Three guesses…a) the Ukraine army is just the best, b) Russia is bereft of leadership and it’s like a Mr Bean episode over there, c) we have given Ukraine a shit ton of money, sent endless weapons, CIA assets, leaders within the Army and actual armed forces into neighboring countries to train Ukrainian soldiers, teach them how to fly our planes, war plan etc,
The Russians will mount a response, likely not nuclear but the Ukrainians will surely pay a terrible price. That’s the very definition of escalation. There is no doubt Putin could use conventional weapons to completely level Kiev. The only possible choices are for a negotiated settlement or devastation in Ukraine, so it’s just unfathomable that they aren’t willing to accept a deal asap or even negotiate in good faith.
It is my belief, Matt, that too many people have played too many video games or watched too many movies and have lost touch with what happens in real life. The fact that Putin has nuclear weapons just flies right over their bobble heads. At 82, I'm still familiar with the last stages of WWII and the cold war and the real fear of another Hiroshima. Thank you for your serious evaluation of the current attitude about this horrible war.
In fact, this begs the question: if the parties involved (n.b., the plural, not just Ukraine) had figured out this way to attack strategic Russian resources, why show their hand now?
That is, as you very clearly describe, there will be a response and Russia could likely flatten Ukraine with just conventional weapons. At this point, I don't think Trump wants to get involved in any escalation and I don't think the EU has either the materiel or popular support to get involved in a fully-fledged war.
So why execute this attack now? They've shown their hand that they could pull it off but one can be sure that Russia will take all possible measures to thwart anything similar in the future.'
This paints Ukraine into a corner: it would seem they basically have to accept a peace deal that they might not have needed to prior.
It would seem that Putin can declare that he specifies the condition of the peace (e.g., he gives back no captured territory and NATO cannot include Ukraine) OR he just levels Ukraine.
There is actually a lot of doubt that he could. He’d have to get artillery within 20-30 miles of the city, which they tried to do in the beginning of the war, with much newer and more capable hardware, as well as regular troop formations not stuffed with criminals and North Koreans. That failed miserably and forced them to retreat. Tough to see their current ground forces succeeding where their “best” failed in the beginning.
From the air they’d need to carpet bomb it repeatedly. Given they can’t get their air craft anywhere near Ukrainian air defense networks that’s not an option. That’s why they use their bombers, which are mix use (conventional and nuclear) to launch cruise missiles from hundreds of miles out, typically releasing those weapons well in Russian territory.
Putin has already leveled cities in Ukraine. He’s not holding back.
Their doctrine is basically to shell with artillery until nothing is left standing, then advance infantry and armor to the rubble and bring the artillery up to repeat.
A reasonable sounding question if it weren't for the facts.
The answer is because Clinton, Bush II, Obama, and Biden never withdrew in their steady march to take apart Russia, a land of great resources. A big plum on their list was Ukraine. Even Trump in his first term was persuaded to unilaterally cancel an important nuclear treaty with Russia, just as Bush had done in 2002.
These men, backed up by their various male and female advisors and operatives, pushed NATO to Russia's front porch in open defiance of the promises which had ended the cold war.
Obama started the Ukraine war in 2014 when he overthrew the legitimate government of Ukraine by using the same characters (one of them the war-mongering woman Victoria Nuland) that Bush used in his 2003 destruction of Iraq.
According to the former head of Ukraine's military when the Russians invaded in 2022, General Valerii Zaluzhnyi, the war started with Obama's coup of 2014, although preparations had already been made as far back as the Minsk Accords circa 2008, which (female) Angela Merkel later admitted were a ruse to give NATO a chance to build up the Ukrainian military for a future conflict.
Russia, for its part at that time was simply asking for Ukraine to be neutral, much like Austria has been for decades.
After the Obama coup (overseen by V-P Biden) a program of ethnic cleansing/civil war was started by the long-existing neo-nazi elements we put in power there, while American or Western corporations like Monsanto moved in to snatch up rich farmland previously denied them by earlier Ukrainian law. The majority ethnic Russian-Ukrainians in the Donbas region demanded autonomy from the new American-installed regime. They were not to have it. Some 15,000 people were killed there in eight years of NATO-supported war prior to Putin finally declaring his Special Military Operation to invade and protect them, as well as remove the generations-long neo-nazi elements from Ukrainian government, and insure Ukraine's neutrality.
What is amazing (or not?!?) is that this history is far from obscure.
The facts you state (I elsewhere added a reference to William Burns 2008 message to Condoleezza Rice) are well known and have been so for...decades!
It arguably began-or-accelerated with the immediately-broken "promise" of James Baker to Mikhail Gorbachev that if Germany re-united, NATO would not push eastward.
The sequence of events and their pretty obvious implications seem to either escape people or are willfully ignored. It's wild, and tragically so for so many people caught in the middle.
Anyone saying "special military operation" unironically is quite obviously lying (are you an ivan or a useful idiot?) but it is always amusing to see how it does not even occur to Russians that nobody likes them for their own reasons (just try spending 5 minutes downwind of one) and not because Americans told them to.
So Russia gets to invade a country, that country is not allowed to fight back, and no one can suggest that Russia stop invading. The Real World is a place where dictators rule and everyone else has to follow their orders regardless.
“America goes not abroad seeking monsters to destroy. She is the well wisher to the freedom and independence of all”
John Quincy Adam’s
This has been a conflict in American foreign policy since its inception. After the debacles over the last 50 years I am firmly in John Quincy Adam’s camp. Focus on our country. Interact with the world but avoid foreign entanglements and wars. Conserve our treasure( debt over 35 trillion😩😩😩) and blood.
Iraq x 2, Afghanistan, Panama, Granada, Vietnam, Libya, Syria....shall we continue the list of countries the U.S. has used military solutions to overthrow?
Sure, they could, but what incentive does Russia have to withdraw? From their perspective, they are slowly but surely achieving their goals. Of course you can suggest they stop, but what's going to make them? What many people (including people in the current US admin) are saying is that further escalating the violence is not working, that people are dying needlessly, and that there needs to be a political solution to end it. Perhaps it's wrong, but one definition of insanity is trying the same thing and expecting a different result. I welcome a different approach to ending the bloodshed.
Cuban middle crisis is a very apt analogy. The US would not stand for USSR missiles in Cuba, and there’s no reason to expect Russia to accept NATO missiles in Ukraine. Russia is entitled to protect a reasonable sphere of influence as the US has done since the 1800s with the Monroe Doctrine. Also, after the Iraq invasion fiasco, the US has forfeited its right to complain about other powers’ aggressive actions.
Russians definitely will bomb a few more schools and hospitals. Might even find something else that does not shoot back and makes a good target for the brave Russians. But they have been doing that for years now so what's new.
It is quite fathomable though why people lacking any principles and convictions would be at loss trying to understand why someone might keep fighting against an enemy that denies their very existence...
I thought that was because Ukrainians had attempted to take out his helicopter with drones -- another operation that Trump hadn't even heard about, until a reporter brought it to his attention.
The Ukrainians had help with their drone operation--ya, no shit. Contact the CIA-- maybe they'll hire you as a "stringer."
And the illegal occupation ends when the Russians retreat back across the border to the motherland, or are defeated on the battlefield. And they will be, eventually.
I never meant to say otherwise; in fact, I was directly acknowledging Anglo-American prejudices.
This may no longer be true, but last I was informed, German-Americans are the single largest ethnic demographic in the US; the influence of centuries of politics between German- and Anglo-Americans, culminating in de facto ethnocide upon the former during and just after WWI, may be one of the most consequential threads in the country's history, and yet it's almost never brought up.
Which Anglo-American prejudices are you referring to? Yes, there are lots of Germans who immigrated to the US and I think you are right they may be still the largest ethnicity followed by black or African-American. If you include all the mostly white ethnicity of European-Americans its 63%. Are you saying that Americans of German and Anglo descent committed ethnocide of Germans during WWI? Was that ethnocide or simply war?
A) I only meant as in, if you heard someone was named "Umlaut Von Schwanstucker" or something, American voters could more readily associate it with genocide and warmongering when there's no logical reason that should be any less true of English or Gaelic names.
B) You misunderstand, I was referring strictly to the home-front. Consider why German heritage is so common in America, yet hardly anyone here is fluent in German; monoligualism is neither normal nor beneficial (Silver Lining: It did sort of give us Groucho Marx). English-VS-German sentiment was also a factor in the Prohibition movement, so like I said, long shadow.
Got it. And it wasn't just the Germans who were effectively ethnocided during that period. Swedes and Norwegians and others whose language might be confused with German were also under pressure to suppress their use of it and bring up their kids to be purely English-speaking Americans. My father's family, born in the aftermath of WWI, never got to learn their parents' language for that reason.
More broadly, the push to homogenize everyone into English-speaking Americans at that time not only wiped out almost all the European ethnic enclaves, but also the hundreds of different languages spoken by native American Indian communities, that were not spoken anywhere else. Nearly all of those are now lost forever.
My last name is German. On both mom and dad sides. But we're such mutts we don't even know where we came from. On both sides. Maybe Switzerland a couple of hundred years ago, maybe Strasbourg a bit later. There's a Wales connection in there somewhere too. I think we're clean.
My family is originally from heartland PA, so conflict wasn't even an issue. It was when i lived in NJ and NY, and later had some middle eastern students in my grad school classes that it became an issue of curiosity.
I was going to say the same ie Japan. Since the dumbass Zelinsky only knocked out 1/3 of the bombers what happens if the other 2/3 carry out a Dresden or Doolittle type raid on Kiev?
The firebombing of Dresden killed around 25,000 civilians and burned much of an entire city. The Doolittle raid was intended to boost morale but was insignificant. Dresden (or Hiroshima) is the apt comparison.
Thank you. There is a ton of history involved in this mess. And most people don't understand or don't want to understand history...especially the history of Europe over the millennia. The whole continent hates each other.
That's an uncomfortably apt comparison as can be deduced with basic reasoning.
Many people in the west--including politicians and news media--seem to be deluded into thinking that the population in Russia is against the war and chomping at the bit to boot Putin out. There surely are some Russians who feel that way--especially Russian students here in the west-- but I don't see evidence that the Russian population at large is viewing it that way. I can't see how this attack achieves any reasonable strategic gain unless the so called strategy is to escalate and perpetuate. Even for the most ardent anti-Putin Westerners the only strategy that makes any sense is to admit that we failed to exert sufficient pressure to avoid the war in the first place, further admit in view of these incredible fuck ups that Russian territorial gains cannot be completely reversed, and to end the war as awkwardly as possible for Putin... and to continue thereafter to exert international pressure that makes Putin's regime as uncomfortable and as unsustainable as possible--this attack achieves nothing of the sort as far as I can tell. Maybe this is the kind of tactic that would make sense for a long term war strategy of death, attrition and destruction--but this is prima facie the worst possible strategy for Ukraine as even the most obnoxious insipid armchair strategist can see (yes, yes i know....that would be me at this moment). Especially if one assumes a modicum of Russian patriotism in the populace. Looks to me like this kind of action can only rile the Russian public and hence your comment is disturbingly on point. I really wanted to view it as knee jerk or reactionary, but the foregoing thoughts prevent me from seeing it in that light.
(Disclaimer: I fully see Putin's war as criminal and immoral to the highest degree, and I am 100% pro Ukraine and want the very best for Ukraine and for Europe. I also think it is evident that Putin is intentionally destroying Ukraine. That may not have been his original goal but it seems pretty clear that if he can't have it he wants to break it to bits and so weaken it.)
You seem reasonable (unlike some of your other responders), so I invite you to consider you have been lied to.
1. It's not an "unprovoked war of aggression" that came out of nowhere in 2022. It was DELIBERATELY provoked, and has been brewing since 2014 when the US staged a coup in Ukraine so it could be used as an expendable catspaw. "Supporting" Ukraine in this conflict effectively means the dead-opposite of what you intend it to. This has all been well-documented, and some "Western" officials have even admitted to at least parts of it.
2. Read almost any story in "Western" mainstream media about Ukraine from circa 2015 to early FEB 2022, and you will see a dismal picture of corruption and neo-Nazis. Ask yourself why such a consistent picture vanished in the blink of an eye.
3. Talk to Russians; they'll compare this to the American Civil War, this is sad for them. THEY care about Ukrainians. NATO couldn't care less.
3a. Ask yourself why the budget for "supporting" Ukraine is limitless while there's somehow no money for anything else (except Israel, see below); you don't REALLY think NATO's some kind of selfless (let alone self-mutilating, like the Christian-mythology pelican) charity, do you?
3b. Ask yourself why the Iron Curtain has re-fallen, yet in the opposite direction; the Russian government/corporations never silenced US, yet ours silenced THEM. This should make it obvious which side has something to hide from its own people.
So if you were the Ukrainian government and head of the armed forces, your strategy would be to give Putin everything he wants rather than continue to fight for the country's sovereignty by doing things like disabling Russia's air power?
... disabling 1/4 or less of its airpower, some of that likely temporary. Do you think Russia does not still have enough capacity to start - if not nuclear attacks - then WWII level mass bombings of Ukraine's remaining cities/infrastructure/population?
If you were the Ukrainian government, you would be looking for a way to survive this fight and try to find a way to prevent the next one.
they HAVE done that, but the Russians won't agree to any kind of security guarantee for Ukraine in the future so Putin leaves them with no choice but to fight back as best they can.
Russia should not be trusted to adhere to any sort of security guarantee. Ukraine needs to develop the sorts of economic relationships with EU, US, etc. that makes it too costly for Russia to bite off another chunk and if this insane fiasco is the "best they can", they are going to lose anyway.
Ukraine already has a deep economic relationship with the U.S. and EU: we're paying for their military and their economy right now. We pay their pensions, their government salaries, and just about everything else.
I think you’re discounting the psychological effect of this attack on the Russian brass and Putin’s regime. 1. They will immediately start suspecting each other and purge anyone who looks suspicious, which means mostly random people who have beefs with other random people, a tactic which never helps mission cohesion. 2. This is the kind of thing insurgencies can do quite well, even if it’s a smaller scale. Imposing a settlement on Ukraine means creating a large class of insurgents. (See: the IRA, the PLO, Hamas, and plenty of others.) Russia has lots of smart people in it and a few of them work for Putin so it’s safe to assume some of them know this. The USSR even bankrolled insurgents so there should some institutional memory.
The message of this attack is much more complex than Taibbi makes it appear.
I agree with you.... but this particular tactic makes no sense to me especially at the political layer. But I am honestly super open to arguments as to what I am missing.
I think Putin is focused on perpetuating his regime and legacy and is totally willing and able to do it at Russia's expense to the extent that he feels able to pull it off without being ousted by his own henchmen. That is a typical authoritarian mindset and I see no evidence that Putin is exceptional in this sense. Is that your read also?
Broadly, yes. I think that, unless the West totally screws things up (and leftists are leaning that way, so don't discount that possibility) the risk of the Genghis Khan, Napoleon, Hitler type wannabe world conquerors has ended. Nuclear weapons and economic interdependence simply create too much leverage for deterrence.
Within that context, I think even someone as twisted as Putin is limited to far more limited conquest ambitions. He is limited to minor incursions where there will not be enough threat to the major powers to inspire a direct response (see Iraq/Kuwait where the risk to oil led to a massive combined response). It helps if he can also find covering arguments of provocation, even if a bit weak. There was a promise to limit NATO expansion which was not upheld and there was limited separatist motivation for Russian heritage people living in the Crimea and Ukraine. I don't really see those as legitimate casus belli but, in a world where the UN can support terrorist causes, it is not crazy to try to mitigate an attempted conquest with these excuses.
Good points. Thanks. It's fun to encounter a thinky person who actually wants to converse and exchange thoughts in these forums!! When I started doing chats on substack I thought there would be much more of this sort of back and forth. I love Matt Taibbi's readers and Trigonometry's fans as well, and there are clearly a lot of smart folks in this forum. On this particular topic I would be remiss if I failed to admit I inherit the Lion's share of my thoughts on this topic from Stephen Kotkin. I do put a LOT of time and attention to the other well known voices such as Mearsheimer and Sachs et al...and still I think that Kotkin stands out head and shoulders above them. I am kind of amazed that he does not garner more deference from the Public Intellectual Industrial Complex. He gives expertise a good name! :) :)
This talk is a real gem!! Would be interested to hear your take...I found this to be incredibly helpful.....seems to be fairly validating towards your remarks.
Lavrov is incredibly impressive. In his profession he runs circles around most Western diplomats with his skills. In a world where great powers face off against each other with competing interests he is the gold standard for championing his cause. I gotta respect that even in cases where I believe his cause does not align with ours. Putin strikes me as a very straight ahead authoritarian and a bad actor, but he is most certainly an adult and that's just what and who we are dealing with...it would be for the best if Western stakeholders would meet this dangerous moment with seriousness of thought and purpose.
they have every right to continue fighting even till all they have left to defend is a few square kilometers near the polish border. maybe by then lyndsey Graham and Keir starmer will suit up and come fight with them.
The leaders aren't fighting for anything but how much money they can loot to fund their post-war retirement.
Ukraine tried to run a monetary incentive recruitment campaign for the 18-24 demographic that doesn't face mandatory conscription...yet, but it failed miserably.
Ukraine's army is largely conscripts, and they fight and bribe hard to get assignments to REMF positions or drone teams.
The defensive war is a cloud of drones covering up a critically small infantry contingent.
It's been three years, and despite all the "recruitment" and western equipment donations, Ukraine effectively has three mechanized brigades, which is what they started the war with. They're taking big losses and vastly underreporting them, while making absurd claims about 1,000,000 dead Russians because they know most western outlets and politicians are going to happily cling to that number.
They didn’t disable Russia’s air power. They disabled maybe a half dozen obsolete nuclear bombers whose only purpose was for show. Russia still rules the skies over Ukraine. Russian glide bombs can still destroy entire apartment complexes, and Russia still has a massive supply of these weapons. Russian aircraft can fly at will. Where are those F-16s that were going to reverse the situation? They were nowhere to be found because if they were found they would be immediately shot down.
When the war ends and the Ukrainians living in Europe don't move back to Ukraine, it will be a bit clearer as to what the real desire of the people in western and central Ukraine was from the beginning: not living in Ukraine.
Ukranian population growth rate is .7. That accounts for war dead and the greater number of war refugees.
At this rate, Ukraine’s population will decline by 97% over the next decade.
US neocons started this war so they could get rich selling weapons and exploiting Ukraine’s energy reserves.
Moronic Americans who believe everything they are told jumped on board for another trendy cause that gave them new flags to put into their bios. Most Americans with the Bandar flag in their bio have no idea where Ukraine is or when it became an independent country or what the Battle of Prokhorovka was and who won it. (It’s still a salient issue!!)
On the same day the "Operation Spiderweb" unfolded, there were two bridges blown up in Western Russia. One of them fell on the train tracks below, while a passenger train was going by. 7 people were killed, more than 100 injured. All of them civilians, including several babies.
The number of casualties would have been higher, if not for the heroic actions of the train engineer. He pushed his assistant into the machine compartment behind, and stayed in front to the very end, applying emergency brakes. He managed to slow down the train, but he is one of those who died.
For obvious reasons, Ukraine kept silent about these terrorist acts, and they were barely mentioned by the MSM.
How do you feel about this? Are they criminal and immoral to the highest degree? Mind you, this is only the latest example of terrorist acts specifically targeting civilian population. How, do you think, Russians feel about it?
Would be nice to show some (any) proof that Ukraine had something to do with it, rather than those bridges being in the same state of repair as the rest of Russian infrastructure. At least one of them apparently had some pretty bad inspection results recently.
Russians complaining that some civilians died though is somewhat amusing but... tough titties. Karma's a bitch.
Me. I am of Russian extraction, and cannot begin to fathom or accept the absolute insane hatred of the one nation with whom we should be making common cause on a number of issues.
Neutral. However, if I were living in Europe I'd be very grateful for his restraint. As Matt's article indicates, however, it's not at all clear that the Ukraine cheerleaders have enough sense to understand that they're suicidally provoking a retaliatory escalation from which there will be no return.
the war ends tomorrow when Russia decides to stop fighting a war they started and send North Korea home. Imagine, MAGA focuses their ire on Zelensky, meanwhile Russia literally allies with the worst and most evil regime in the entire world, and yet the isolationist crowd is mad at Zelensky for fighting back. Insane.
Zelensky is not a hero. No amount of conservative or liberal chest beating turns him into one. Putin is a criminal but blaming Russia for NATO expansion to their doorstep without recognizing the sheer stupidity of that move (along with very obvious CIA intervention in Chechnya and Georgia) doesn't do us any good and makes the entire world less safe. This is not the movie REDS and we aren't going to show those Russians a thing or two!
Matt is exactly right. Everyone is an analyst, only the analysis is cheerleading and being giddy in the face of Armageddon. My God, cursing Putin does nothing!
Where does Russian expansion stop, if we concede Ukraine? Or Chinese expansion, if the see this and decide to take Taiwan? Do we look out only for our own and provide no assistance to the rest of the world's democracies when they are gobbled up by larger autocratic bully-neighbors? Proximity (or lack thereof) matters, but doesn't principle, or common cause? Shoot, the world is a small enough place, and too many countries (the majority) are comparative basket cases already. Putin only has something to fear from NATO because he is by any reasonable standards a criminal pariah, who doesn't want his own people to see Ukraine demonstrate the alternative of a functioning democracy. If Russia could be too, NATO expansion would have been a non-issue.
So, back to real-politik ... for reasons fair or foul, Putin wants to restore autocratic Russia as a major and, as needed, hostile power with defensible borders ... supposedly next to fall are Georgia and Moldova. What about Poland, or Finland? Are they where it stops? Romania? Or is there a way to peacably partition Ukraine? How is Putin forced to the table, if Ukraine does not get support to deliver a few bloody noses? Does anybody have a long term game plan?
Ukraine isn't just "Country X" and among a succession of targets for Russia.
The disposition of Ukraine is the most important foreign policy issue in Russia. Given the history of European invasions and antagonism toward Russia, their ultimate nightmare is French, German and US tanks sitting on their border. Russia knows that on the other side of Ukraine, you are already into central Europe. They cannot tolerate this situation, and were willing to engage in a very risky war to pursue their security.
So its a totally invalid argument to just pretend ignoring this war will encourage Russia to attack more. There are no other countries in the same circumstances, and it seems ridiculous to justify escalating this war to prevent ones that only exist in your imagination.
I'm not pretending, I'm raising questions based on things I have read or heard from supposedly astute observers. 1) Moldova and Georgia specifically mentioned as additional targets. 2) Russia has the largest borders with a relatively small population, and needs additional territory to reduce their exposure. 3) Of Russia weren't ruled by thugs they needn't have feared having NATO on their borders, in fact they could have it. Admittedly, I'm not sure that's compatible with the Russian psyche.
So, your position is that Ukraine is unique, and not Sudetenland v2? The appeasement stops here?
Funny how those "European invasions" tend to start with Russia trying to snatch a piece off of its neighbor...
"This is a very special case, only this one time, totally not a slippery slope." Yeah, right. Will work out just as well as "they just want to get married" totally did not lead to well-hung guys shaking their schlongs into girls' dressing rooms. Not to mention that a list of targets is out there, if you only bother to learn some Russian.
I have no idea where Russian expansion stops. Frankly I don't really care in terms of what my country is dealing with. I would argue with the core assumption within the question. We have no idea if Putin plans to push his way into other countries and he has not indicated he will threaten old soviet states beyond Ukraine. I am quite aware that our clandestine services were heavily involved in actions in Chechnya and Georgia that look an awful lot like they were meant to help destabilize both countries and create the illusion that Putin is even more of a warmonger than he obviously is. US foreign policy seems to be that we will do whatever we can to foment war with Russia as the military and CIA run around the planet throwing grenades and committing to color revolution. Whatever the case, there is no way out of a protracted war with the second most powerful military nation on the planet where "we're gonna kick their asses", "we will dust Putin", blah blah blah works. Given that without doubt, America helped plan and execute the drone attacks in Russia without direct authorization, Trump should leave Ukraine entirely.
Nice Reds reference. You don't rewrite what I write. Of course, that line didn't work for me with a college newspaper editor any better than it did for Jack Reed.
Russia did not start this war; the CIA, EU, & NATO started it with the Maidan coup of 2014, and repeatedly admitting more nations on Russia's borders to NATO. There is no way the US would put up with similar behavior on the part of Russia or China on our own borders.
Imagine the US lost a foriegn war and as a consequence, Mexico recaptured all the land it lost in the Mexican American war, to include Texas and California. We had an agreement that they could keep it as long as they were not openly hostile and we could retain San Diego as a Naval Yard.
The foreign power we lost to not only pushed Mexico to move offensive weapons into Texas and California, (Ukraine) but also denied us the use of San Diego as a military naval yard (Crimea).
Why is the CIA responsible for the Maidan coup, any more than Russian influence was doubtless involved in installing a Russian puppet? Maybe it was impolitic to meddle in what Russia naturally views as it's sphere of influence, but since WW2 at least, Europe, and defense of democracy, has been ours. I'm not saying it was right, but somewhere it seems like we need to grow a rules based international order, not just let the bullies take over, one domino at a time. What's the game plan for that? I don't believe isolationism is entirely moral or wise.
Yeah - no. Both countries violated the Minsk Accords. Russia this round was the aggressor and attacked. No saints here, and the Biden administration wasn't doing very well either. Putin has been working to re-establish the old Soviet security footprint.
B.S. The Russians did everything possible to avert this war. The negotiations in Instanbul prove this. They simply demanded what we would have demanded in exactly the same situation. Your ideas about "old Soviet security footprint" have been put into your brain by someone else and you think it's your idea.
Back in the Soviet days, Russia had its buffer empire-it was called the Warsaw Pact-and Russia intervened militarily at least twice to keep it intact. Not surprisingly, once the USR collapsed the Warsaw Pact nations weren’t keen to remain adjuncts of Russian foreign policy.
cute the way you omitted Maidan color-change (CIA) and bear-poking for the past decade (Nuland: "f_ck the EU") etc etc etc. you also forgot actual Nazis in Ukraine
No one seems to understand here that NATO started this war. There had been three previous agreements since 1991, between NATO and Soviets/Russia, that NATO would not move an inch east. That’s how the Berlin wall came down. It was in agreement. NATO then moved 1000 miles east. They’ve added 20 countries east. That’s not exactly keeping your commitment. NATO was moving into western Ukraine, which Putin considers his front lawn. I don’t blame him. I would defend my country as well.
Your crocodile tears for Ukrainians perishing in defense of their freedom, homes, and families, and the poor invading, aggressing orcs do not impress.
It isn't really the responsibility of aged American public figures to go and fight in defense of Ukraine, but as the leader of the free world, it is the United States' responsibility to oppose criminal aggression and barbarous tyranny.
The good ol' USA has traveled the world since WW2 killing millions in the process. No doubt we provoked Russia into this war as well. Our deep state seems committed to WW3.
You mean like expanding NATO to the point that there is no possibility of avoiding Russian aggression? That sounds empty and not terribly useful when you're standing in the cave of a bear that you're poking with a sharp stick.
No amount of grandstanding about what an awful cur Putin is gets us out of a potential nuclear war that will completely obliterate Ukraine. But yeah, we should be mad at those guys and send more arms into a proxy war.
We overthrew the government of Iraq in 2003, the government of Libya in 2012, and finally succeeded in overthrowing the government of Syria in 2024.
That doesn't even go into our standing policy of interfering in foreign elections, running smear campaigns against politicians we don't like in those countries, and funding and arming dissidents around the world.
Did you feel free of tyranny when Democrat leaders across the U.S. were keeping schools closed, destroying small businesses, and not even allowing people to use the parks and beaches?
Criminal aggression? Look no further than the U.S. which for the last 30 years has created havok in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya, and yes, Ukraine, with our idiotic meddling, coups, regime change, etc.
I was thinking something very similar. That visit was an amazing coincidence!
P.S. My thoughts exactly again! Anyone who is celebrating and not preparing for a massive counter is stupid and delusional. The celebration vibe is bizarre.
SMH ... Wallace's quote: "Trump is moving the country away from what the people want it to be." I love that no matter how many votes are counted, no matter what the polls say about what the populace wants wrt wwiii, Rachel and Nicole will still sub in their own opinions for those of "the people."
When European kings would ask for the casualties from their side after a battle, they only wanted to know about how many nobles, knights, and other "gentlemen of quality" died. They didn't care how many peasants died outside of how it impacted their ability to continue waging their war.
I am pretty sure that Trumps governing policies are appreciated by far more people than are willing to say would support him. If the election was held today, he would get more votes. Mainly from the people who did not believe he would do what he is doing. Especially with DEI and the border.
Very few Americans understand the enormous strategic implications to the United States of what Ukraine did here, how they did it and how they kept us in the dark. We have been run by madmen. The hangover from the Biden administration may still lead to worldwide annihilation. This attack should lead to the US walking away from this war once and for all, but I fear it will have the opposite effect as the world moronic wing of the GOP reflexively flexes.
It's going to have to happen. The Europeans are like the little dog behind the fence who is acting tough because they know they are protected. Remove that fence and they'll roll over and be nice.
For very insightful analysis of these events, go to The Duran Podcast.
Despite the best efforts of the neoconservatives in Europe and US, I don’t think they will succeed in goading Russia into overreacting. Russia’s best option is to proceed as they have been, and achieve peace by winning the war this summer.
The Duran is the best source of information on this conflict. I watch all their stuff every day. Following both Alex and Alexander for their daily updates are also great, I never miss a video.
At tremendous human cost (on both sides). They can play footsie with the behemoth that lives to their south with 25% of the worlds population looking at the resource rich empty wasteland of Siberia. Putin has rained misery on the Russian people.
And if you think Putin is bad, you don’t want to know the hard-liner who would take his place if the Russian ruling class decides he’s being too nice. That’s the thing you bleeding idiots don’t get. Putin is the “good cop.” He was America’s choice.
I have my doubts that the Russian people are any more miserable than any other people. I’ve seen videos from Russia. They live in decent housing (smaller than in the US, but their mortgages also don’t go out 30 years). They eat good food. They drive decent cars. It’s not the Soviet Union. As for bad “leadership,” yeah, but ours hasn’t been that hot for the last three to four decades either, as the American standard of living has cratered while the middle class dies a slow agonizing death and the income inequality keeps growing. So I’d be careful about throwing stones while I live in a glass house.
Happiness is internal. Russians have about 1/3 the income of US residents. USA has a life expectancy of 78 vs 72 for Russia (2023 pre-war). As bad as our leadership is, we make more and live longer. Happiness is up to each of us personally. I have seen people who live under a table in the streets of Calcutta with ear-to-ear grins.
Something tells me the Houthis are going to be restocked with some neat new anti-ship missiles and some pristine targeting data soon.
Also won't surprise me if a fishing boat cracks open to reveal a swarm of drones flying into the flight hangar of one of our carriers next time it's near a north African or middle eastern port.
I’m completely disgusted by the media response. Maddow and Wallace are so sick and twisted. Yet they are so typical of what passes for ‘elites’ and ‘democracy’ in a failing system.
Putin doesn’t even have the balls to go after Zelensky because he knows they will get him. Maybe Americans like you don’t understand the strategic implications of Russia pooping on Trump’s olive branch and making the David Saks wing look wrong, sad and inept.
I saw Rachel Maddow and Nicole Wallace “reflexively flex”. I am in no way a fan of the GOP, but the main reflex I see here is the blaming of them for something they didn’t do.
A piece of good news. Here in SC a lot of people are talking about Lindsey's frequent trips abroad as he tries to be US Secretary of War. People in SC are not happy, and now records of the cost to taxpayers are out. This past trip for Lindsey & his friend Dick cost a little over $800,000. Hopefully Lindsey has finally bitten off more than he can swallow.
South Carolinian here. We’ve been trying to vote this corrupt asshole out for years now. Won’t happen. We have open primaries and a corrupt GOP establishment that has the state system rigged. He’ll be re-elected easily which is why he’s so openly corrupt. He’s protected.
Ahh, is Ralph going to run for Governor or against Lindsey? I heard both rumors over the last year or so.
In case you are interested, at the end of each week Congress is in session I publish a Substack listing the recorded votes for all SC Rep's/Senator's; I add no comments. Subscribe if you are interested in receiving them and once the stage comes more into focus concerning Lindsey's race I'll elaborate with a post on the system you cited here.
As Matt Von Swol, who’s been documenting the response to Hurricane Helene here in WNC, points out, Lindsey Graham lives 1.5 hours from us, yet hasn’t bothered to visit since the storm. And how many trips has he taken to Ukraine in the past 8 months?
I'm a little south of you, we were hit pretty hard but compared to your area we dodged a bullet. Lindsey's a joke, hopeful soon to be found in the ash-bin of history.
That goes for all States. If you are in SC and want to win, call yourself R. The problem is that once in, they become lifers. We need to put an end to that. Somehow we managed in TN.
Truly one of the best AWS drops of all of all time Matt. You and Walter did an outstanding job exposing the political war pigs in our government as well as our corrupt & and psychopathic corporate media. You guys are national treasures.
Does anyone believe that Ukraine did not use western technology to make this happen? Why would Ukraine build drones with all English in the displays like "failsafe?" Where did they get the satellite images of the damage? Also, we know they were receiving NATO help including targeting help from earlier reports. This is a very dangerous situation that those two overpaid giddy morons can barely comprehend. It is so dumb to analyze whether this makes Trump look bad or whether he "backed" the wrong side. This is not a football game, it is a war with nuclear implications. The premise behind mutually assured destruction was that before your bombs hit, the other side would launch. This situation enhances the risk of a "use it or lose it" situation where the Russians have an incentive to use weapons, including nukes, before they can be destroyed by drone strikes. It is not a good thing. It is an escalation and a more dangerous situation irrespective of whether the Russians deserve it.
Likely the Europeans were involved. Trump should threaten to temporarily suspend NATO Article 5 mutual defense if they keep undermining his attempts to negotiate a peace deal. That would get their attention.
Yes- TV Screen showing several nuclear explosions in western cities. Anchor Nicole Wallace: "Rachel, this will have to hurt Trump's poll numbers..." Rachel, giggling, "yes, and it will be hard to keep the House in 2026!" I mean how farfetched is this? They did it with the pandemic. It is mentally ill.
I think many if not most Americans have no idea what is at stake globally from this war. It boils down to people having a 9th grade understanding of history, being fairly self absorbed and frankly untethered to reality. iPhones, Youtube and lattes have supplanted books, collective memory of fearful times and humility as coin of this realm. Even forty year olds don't remember truly frightening points in history like Vietnam or the Bay of Pigs. My folks and my in-laws worried throughout the Vietnam war that their sons would be drafted. GIs came back from there changed completely. Two decades later, the Gulf War simply didn't have that influence on Americans. It lasted 30 seconds and we lost almost no lives. We are soft and complain about soft things. And so, for most people it's, "If you hit me, my dad is going to punch your dad in the face" with no nuance of what could come out of this war. Maddow and Wallace are both too young, far too certain and frankly too uninformed to truly get the reality of the time we're living in. I would guess so are the proudly uninformed commenters regarding Matt and Walter's fear. Or perhaps they just don't give a shit and are part of the problem. Either way, we have a lot of soft hands talking glibly about a situation that they can't conceive of being involved in.
What is frightening is how easily our government has decided it will simply commit to increasing our deficit and depleting our arms to involve itself in a grinding war of attrition. And if Putin sends a small nuke into Ukraine or obliterates a city with a giant missile strike, then what?
I actually grew up in the 70s and 80s but studied Vietnam (and history in general, particularly WW1, 2, Korea, and the Civil War) and frankly had a dad who was very good at describing how it was. To your point about not knowing or not caring- I think it is a little of both and also not believing it could happen or that it won't be that bad. I keep coming back to this and I hope Matt and Walter eventually see it but there is this "What to do in a nuclear attack" PSA developed by NYC in 2022! It is both frightening and comedy gold. It is like a repurposed "what to do if there is a tornado" PSA. It actually starts, "so there has been a nuclear attack, don't ask me how or why..." Or they think we have magic technology to shoot down all the Russian missiles or intercept the warheads. I do not believe that is the case, especially for those delivered by sub or ICBM. I won't even get into an EMP attack. And btw, I am not sure what we would do if there was a mass drone attack either. Finally, I agree, I feel like we have been trapped into backing a war of attrition that is killing 100s of thousands and costing 100s of billions that we do not have. And yes, to my "use it or lose it" point, what if Putin carpet bombs Kiev with his remaining bombers or worse?
It is the cost of prolonged war. Just as a prisoner in prison has nothing to do all day but think about how to mess with people. War fighters spend their waking moments thinking of ways to inflict misery and mayhem.
Most electronic equipment worldwide has an English menu option so that it can be run by anyone with basic knowledge of English. Chinese drones come with Chinese instructions and English instructions. No one has instructions in Ukrainian. The drones probably were adopted versions of foreign drones from China, because they have great drones at great prices, yes they do. Then the Ukes took them and repurposed them. That is how they "built" them, most likely.
I am dubious of this. Even if what you say is true, that is not what we are being told. We are being told they are building themselves. Furthermore, these are not DJI drones you buy off Amazon. They are delivering significant explosive payloads. Are they buying them on the black market, because China is aligned with Russia, and I doubt they are selling them directly. I am just highly dubious that the Ukrainians are pulling this off alone which is what we are being told. This wreaks of implausible deniability or in common parlance, total BS.
Yes, they supposedly build them themselves. The company is First Contact. It appears that they are not selling to others. They may be buying foreign parts and using them. But yes, an English menu on a Ukrainian drone would be odd.
Does it change your calculus if NATO or the West was not involved? If it was little Ukraine fighting an invading army, would you still say, suck it up because nuclear escalation is worse than your country being invaded?
Yes, the nuclear escalation risk part is because of the west's likely involvement. This is not a case of plausible deniability but a case of implausible deniability.
The Russians calculations have not changed. To go nuclear means to directly invite the US into the conflict - which will mean the end of Russia if it went to a logical extreme. Putin knows we are not coming in directly. Our inclusion would end the Ukranian war in about 6 months, perhaps sooner, and Crimea would be back in Ukraine's hands. He doesn't want any of that. The biggest issue is that with this success Ukraine will be even more emboldened to keep up the fight.
There is no justification for comparing Ukraine's attack to 'Pearl Harbor'. It is commonly understood that Ukraine and Russia are at war and therefore the military assets of each are fair targets. On December 7, 1941, the United States was not at war with Japan. To portray Russia as a victim in this is to be grossly misinformed of history.
The comparison is about capacity and what fraction of it was destroyed in one operation, which makes it a pretty interesting one in my book (and I didn’t make it up, it’s everywhere)
At Pearl Harbor, the carriers were out to sea, and the battleships already obsolete. It didn’t really amount to that big a loss in capacity, and like Yamamoto reportedly said, Japan had just woke up a sleeping giant.
There must have been assets within Russia to pull this off, since most of these targets were out of range of Ukraine-based drones. FSB will catch some, no doubt; probably already have.
To your point, six months later, we were already starting to win. And similarly, the bigger Russian danger is nuclear missiles launched from the ground and submarines, not launched from bombers. People have this love affair these days with the term hypersonic missiles. ICBMs and their multiple individual reentry vehicles or MIRVs are hypersonic and have been around for more than 50 years.
I think the contemporary/colloquial use of "hypersonic" refers to semi-near-range devices. ICBMs, as their name denotes, are inter-continental and leave the atmosphere (which requires higher speeds -- not quite that needed to escape gravity but maybe 2/3 of that).
The point being that the distances involved mean that the launch of an ICBM can be detected well before it arrives. With short-to-medium distance hypersonic missiles...there's putatively no time to react.
Right, but there were intermediate range missiles, Pershing IIs that were based in Europe in the 1980s and had only 5 minutes lead time supposedly. Similar with sub missiles. The hypersonic quality is not just about detection time but also the ability to intercept. So a MIRV, whether it is from an ICBM or IRBM traveling at 13,000 - 18,000 MPH, is much harder to intercept than a bomber or cruise missile traveling at 500-600 MPH or so or even 1500 MPH for that matter.
The comparison to Pearl Harbor is right on the mark. For months before Pearl Harbor, the U.S. was blockading oil imports to Japan, an act of war by itself. Japan had no choice but to attack or go bankrupt. Any geniuses in Washington at the time should have seen the attack coming, but negligently did not. What did Admiral Yamamoto say after Pearl Harbor, “I’m afraid we have awoken a sleeping giant.” Same can be said of today’s Russia.
FDR wanted that war(s). US was slipping back into a depression, not any positive news domestically. There's a reason FDR authorized warships as escorts for the Lend/Lease traffic in the Atlantic - he wanted a big enough event to justify entering the European theater. Japan just provided it in the Pacific instead.
The Japanese, just like the Russians of today, had a third choice available to them - stop the war and go home. No doubt this would have displeased the führer, but sometimes you have to break a few eggs.
“It’s everywhere “?? Were they people familiar with the matter? I’m broadly on your side of this issue, but trumps “you don’t have any cards” drivel directed at zelensky isn’t really aging well. Every alt media genius has asserted the imminent demise of Ukraine since the beginning. It’s starting to feel like Afghanistan for everyone involved.
True, shows “limited” war is just as stupid as unlimited war. Too bad we can’t put people like Lindsey Graham or Victoria Nuland on the front, to enjoy what they create.
Hear me out. I think if blewmenthaul and Lindsey graham can be executed together it would have a chilling effect on being a warmonger. And it’s bipartisan so it can’t be deemed political retribution. Have a trial first. And give them leniency if they testify against their co conspirators. Then revoke the leniency. Like the Minsk agreements.
this is the nuclear triad. we have armed and trained and help run this war. we are directly in it. If we thought Russia was complicit in striking our own nuclear bombers -- sitting in the open so the START signatories can count them -- what would we do? This is the discussion. The war was provoked deliberately by NATO. It has been a thin deceit of a war from the start. So if you are okay with risking a strike on the US -- a nuclear strike and on OUR nuclear arsenal -- keep pointing out what are now irrelevancies -- that "Ukraine and Russia" are at war. That is like calling the war against Serbia an "air campaign." It was always NATO v Russia. And NATO is losing.
Our elites act like we're stupid, and they also operate as if the Russians are stupid.
Their pet journalists frame everything as being the brilliance of the clever and brave Ukrainians, while the war has been run from a base in Germany by NATO officers since day 1.
The Russians view NATO nations as hostile actors, because we are.
Really doesn't help when ghouls like Lindsey Graham go on television to talk about what a great deal this war is for America because we get to kill so many Russians and all we have to do is expend Ukrainians. It couldn't have been any clearer that they don't care how many Ukrainians die as long as they're able to keep killing Russians.
What kind of mentality accepts the proposition that Russia is entitled to reduce neighboring states and unwilling peoples to the status of puppet states and imperial subjects? Rooting for Mongoloid Russian tyranny against Ukraine and against America and civilized Europe is a spectacular form of treason.
What an asinine comment. I suspect you are a raving Zionist supremacist. Your anti-Russian animus gives you away as does the stupidity of your comment.
Do you really see this as a freshman political science event? It is literally impossible to cast what's happening as big bad guy vs good little guy. No political scientist or intellectual ever has made this look reasonable for any length of time to serious people, because life is not simple. NATO provocations have to be placed next to Putin's strong man Presidency. The idea rightly or wrongly that he's the devil carries no weight except with intellectually stunted politicians. How is he viewed in Russia? I'll bet you one hundred trillion $ that his polling numbers look fantastic in Russia. I'll bet that matters nearly infinitely more than what you or I or any other Ukraine loving, Russia hating person thinks in America or the EU or UK. Who wants us to load up nukes and head to Poland to put Russia in its place? Idiots want that.
Incidentally I know a family who moved thirty years ago to my neighborhood from Kiev who hate Zelensky's guts. They firmly believe that there are large Nazi elements within the Army and in the highest levels of government. They see themselves as Russian and would vastly prefer to have Yanukovych back and for America to f' off.
Simplifying this war into merely good and bad requires nothing of people who've never had their family's lives put on the line in support of that war. Sometimes war means being pragmatic... like joining a murderous regime - Stalin - in the effort to snuff out the global aspirations of an equally murderous different regime - Hitler.
The comparison is apt in the sense that both the Ukraine and Japanese attacks were tactical victories and strategic defeats.
The Ukraine attack is meaningless because Ukraine is getting throttled, they're out of men, Poland just voted for a nationalist and in a war of attrition there's only one outcome.
Matt and Walter are right to mock the maniacs, but fortunately democracy rode to the rescue in 2024, not that these pricks aren't capable of every sort of madness. My guess is that a sanguine, business as usual, focus on America response will kill this story.
Fact is Trump and most of America couldn't care less what happens in Ukraine, case folks haven't noticed, and that's all that really counts.
1979-1989 the Soviet Union lost Total: 658,402–669,949 casualties – 14,453–26,000 dead. The Soviet Union withdrew in defeat and its government collapsed in 1991.
2022-2025 invasion of Ukraine Russia lost Total: 800,000 to 1,000,000+ casualties --200,000 to 250,000 dead.
NATO (Europe) has shown their abject miscreant behavior for centuries. Why we trust them is beyond me. Why should we support them financially and militarily any longer? We should NOT let them bring us down with them. They can no longer be saved, and do not deserve to be. We've saved their sorry ass enough.
Repeating the stats promoted by the Ukrainian government marks you as a fool.
If the Ukrainians are getting the 20 to 1 kill ratio they're claiming, then how come their infantry units are critically understaffed? How come they have the same number of mechanized brigades in 2025 as they had when the war began in 2022?
But most of all, how come Russian infantry are seizing fortifications but Ukrainian infantry are failing to return the favor?
Because that is how invasions go. The invaders always lose more, many more, but if they have lots more to begin with, and can replenish which is the case with Russia, then they can continue the invasion. Your arguments are mush.
many military strategists would call a full trade embargo on oil, freezing japanese assets held by us banks, etc as an act of war. at the time something approaching 80% of japanese oil came from the usa. all of this occurred prior to Dec 7.
not to mention the usa arming japan's adversaries (china), the flying tigers - usa mercenaries "volunteers" who flew combat missions against japan in china.
it is a bit of a whitewashing of history to say the usa was attacked unprovoked - kinda like this conflict btw UKE & RUS.
Scott Horton has a great book - Provoked about the aftermath of the cold war and lead up to this conflict.
their total war against china + their alliance w/ axis powers.
this is my exact point - both the usa & japan had chosen sides in the conflict prior to engaging in direct hostilities. it is a bit juvenile & ignorant of history to call japan's attack unprovoked.
War was not declared, and even the Japanese knew they had screwed up. Yamamoto's comments notwithstanding (which are widely debated about whether he ever said that) the countries were deep into negotiations to try and avoid further conflict. The Japanese were totally disingenuous during these discussions, and used them as a ruse while they moved their fleet in for the strike. The idea was to declare war right before the attack. Their own incompetence resulted in the attack coming before the declaration of war.
Obviously history has judged that the carriers being out of port seemed convenient, but the attack was a sneak attack by every definition of the day. It enraged the USA, and the ferocity directed towards Japan always seemed a bit more as a result. In the annals of war, provoked would be a stretch, because by that definition no war is unprovoked.
In foreign policy and geopolitics subterfuge should be forever anticipated as a rule.
As a freedom loving American, the concept of a declaration of war is more of an internally focused message for the citizenry than some phony honor bound proclamation to the world or an adversary.
I didn't say a victim -- although there were civilian victims, the same kind we piss and moan about when they are our friends of the moment -- I never called this attack "Pearl Harbor" in any comment -- what it was was an act in which certain NATO countries bear culpability along with the Ukrainians and as it was an inadmissable attack on the sacred "nuclear triad" -- all bets are off. And if I were DJT, I'd call Zelensky, say "fuck you and the horse you rode in on," call Putin and say, "do it and get it over with," then stop all aid and let Russia do exactly what we would do. And if we condemn Russia -- we condemn what we will eventually be doing here -- fending off armed enemies from at least the south.
With the air raid sirens blaring, warning of incoming ICBMs, I see Maddow and Wallace clinking champagne flutes and saying "Take that, Orange Man. We won! "
You and Walter are beacon in a sea of muck For what it's worth, the folks I respect believe Putin and Trump aren't about to let the piss-ants fuck this up for all of us.
That's what 2024 and being on the right side of history is all about. Keep up the great work!
If Trump looks bad it must be good says the loyal press. They are like a bunch of high school girls bullying the smart gifted girl who is so ahead of them all. I never like Trump that much but I am impressed with his out of the box approach.
thank you for saying it all out in the open. Lindsay Graham should be on trial for treason. I absolutely reject his pro-war stances and his duplicity vis a vis Trump. DJT -- dump the bastard from your list of WH invitees. He probably calls to report to Zelensky anything you say. What the hell is wrong with the world -- why are not the streets filled with the young to protest this drive to hell?
Thank you Matt. Trump has to demonstrate that he is the adult in the room. He should give an address to the nation. He should say that effective immediately we are severing all intelligence sharing with Ukraine. We will not be dragged into this war. I have tried to facilitate peace, but Zelensky has escalated to disrupt these efforts at every opportunity. The United States cannot be manipulated into war.
Good idea, Carl, but the obstacles are Trump's handlers, many in his cabinet and in the senate like Graham.. They want this war. I can't say if Trump is being manipulated into continuing this war, but that is what's happening and his rhetoric towards Putin and Russia belie his desire for peace. So, what's holding him back?
Taibbi nails the insanity of a media and political class so obsessed with dunking on Trump they’re cheering a drone strike that’s pushed us closer to nuclear brinkmanship. The gleeful “Peace Averted!” narrative ignores the real danger to Americans while exposing a deranged elite that prioritizes political point-scoring over survival. Dan Caldwell’s call to cut support for such escalations is the only sane path forward. We need to ditch these lunatics before they drag us into oblivion. Madness.
Good and timely article Matt; you are right on all points. Sadly, while Trump managed to win the electoral college, as well as the popular vote, the deep security, intelligence and administrative state is still well ensconced, with full backing of the democrat party establishment, and a good chunk of the Republican Party RINO neocon wargasm establishment, particularly Lindsey Graham and his fellow crazy dickhead cabal of warmongering republicans in the senate. These people don’t care at all about us and our loved ones as they keep pushing things to the brink.
Lindsey Graham and Dick Blumenthal visited Zelensky the day before the attacks. These warmonger ghouls cheer for slaughter that will never affect them. Send them to the front lines ASAP and the war ends tomorrow.
PS: What happened to Japan after Pearl Harbor?
If that was “Russia’s Pearl Harbor”, it will be interesting to see what “Russia’s Battle of Midway” looks like.
Or Ukraine’s Hiroshima 😮
The NY Times will claim it was a mostly peaceful nuclear detonation.
Last time the NYT downplayed Russian destruction in Ukraine they won a Pulitzer!
If it's the same stories I'm thinking about, the reporting was proved not just false, but propaganda for the USSR, and NYT still haven't given the Pulitzer back.
Yep, that’s it. Communism induced famine in Ukraine and Walter Duranty wrote “you can't make an omelet without breaking eggs.”
Not if Putin launches it, they won't.
I LOL'd.
Can we at least get the analogies right?/ Russia’s invasion was Ukraine’s Pearl Harbor. Wiping out a third of Russia’s strategic air fleet is Ukraine’s Midway.
Whatever claims the Ukrainians make, you need to halve or even 2/3 them.
They say they destroyed 40 aircraft, so the number of irreparable aircraft is likely somewhere between 10-15.
I believe you've nailed it. Who knows how badly Russia was hurt. Whoever believes Zelenskyy is a fool.
Whatever else the attack was, it was certainly a propaganda coup for Zelensky and Ukraine.
Which to Zelensky is more important than a real military victory. More US taxpayer money, more corruption and more Ukrainian oligarchs created.
Propaganda coups are cheap, meaningless victories given the cheerleaders in the western media.
What would you call those who believe Putin?
Fools too. Everyone lies in wartime.
Yes, daring as this raid was, I suspect the medium term impact in terms of operational aircraft lost will be quite small.
That makes them massively more truthful than Israel.
Well, the Ukrainians are just trying to get up to speed when it comes to gaslighting Americans. Israel has been buying U.S. politicians and orchestrating PR campaigns in the U.S. for over sixty years, so they have a lot of practice.
Class, attention, please.
Here, we have an example of a clumsy Racket "News" gaslighter incorrectly deploying the term "gaslighting."
(Mr. or Mrs.?) DancingintheAshes is conflating a group of people who are defending themselves from and authoritarian, aggressor nation who has illegally invaded their country and has proceeded to murder more than a million of them.
This is not gaslighting.
This is gaslighting:
"...In a segment titled, “Ukraine burns Putin, but also schools Trump with surprise drone attack,” MSNBC hosts Nicolle Wallace and Rachel Maddow chatted giddily after a paradigm-shifting operation by Volodymyr Zelensky that left the world on the edge of nuclear exchange."
And how truthful is Hamas?
Who cares? If every word is a lie, that doesn't change 70 yrs of lopsided US middle east policy, with israel the tail wagging the dog.
First Things, "Genocide in Gaza?" by Gerald McDermott. If the sane, populistic Right becomes the feral, anti - Semitic Right, we are done.
1,000% correct. I have been saying this for a long time. Nowadays we normal people are fools to believe any countries mouthpiece as well as the MSM fake news. It’s a very challenging time to try and decipher truth from fiction because their is so much fiction.
Andrey Martyanov says five aircraft were likely destroyed. And, I believe, three other damaged but probably repairable.
True. This sort of exaggeration is always the case in war. The true number may actually be zero irreparable aircraft, which is why Russia hasn't bothered to respond.
They claimed to have attacked, not destroyed, 41 aircraft. Here’s the Beeb:
“Videos verified by the BBC show damaged aircraft at the Olenegorsk air base in Murmansk and the Belaya air base in Irkutsk.
“The strategic missile-carrying bombers targeted in the attack are thought to be – among others - the Tu-95, Tu-22 and Tu-160. Repairing them will be difficult and, because none are still in production, replacing them is impossible.
“Radar satellite imagery shared by Capella Space reveals at least four badly damaged or destroyed Russian long-range bombers at Belaya airbase. This matches Ukrainian drone footage also showing an attack on a Tu-95 bomber.”
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cq69qnvj6nlo
"Can we at least get the analogies right?"
From a person using Rachel Maddow/CIA inspired, glib talking point analogies..?
Designed for the barely sentient to insert, to make them look "clever"...
Russias invasion Was the desired response from The CIA and the US War hawks.
The US helped overthrow Yanukovych in 2014 and picking the "winner" to goad Russia into doing what their own retiring consultants had been telling them would happen.
Hubris-The origins of Russia War against Ukraine
Jonathan Haslam
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSxaa-67yGM#t=89
US wanted a proxy war with Russia and got it..
Iran..next..
Poor little peace loving Russia! Constantly being “goaded” into attacking its neighbors. These provocations have been going on for 700 years, leaving Russia currently 6,000 miles long, but working on 6,500 miles.
I’ve always thought of the CIA as inept; but evidently they’re so diabolically clever they can make Russia dance like a puppet.
"Poor little peace loving Russia! Constantly being “goaded” into attacking its neighbors."
Yes, they should be constantly attacking poor people GLOBALLY like American "Democracy!"
"...the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today: my own government.” --MLK Jr
American violence has become so much worse 58 years later, and is CELEBRATED by the Establishment.
Michael, the “today” MLK was referring to in that speech was April 4, 1967 — the height of LBJ’s Vietnam War.
MLK’s statement was very controversial even then, but applying it to today’s world is utter nonsense, given the violence perpetrated by Vladimir Putin in Ukraine.
Another State Department intern weighs in on the world situation via the Racket News threads...
I wish such interns actually ran US foreign policy rather than the corrupt, ruthless blobists who unfortunately still hold sway.
A better analogy is that this attack was Ukraine’s version of Trenton. But, it stops there, because there is no future Yorktown on the horizon for Ukraine. Just pain and suffering unless they can negotiate an end to this war.
Pain and suffering by normal Ukrainians and Russians. The elite don’t value their lives.
Tell that to NBC News. They ran with that analogy
Nope. Without US intervention, Russia would have wrapped this up by now.
Midway was a decisive battle that permanently shifted the balance of forces between the belligerents. This was a raid that knocked off 5-10 strategic bombers in a war that is being fought between armies and their tactical aviation assets. Furthermore, the Japanese raid on December 7, 1941 wasn't immediately followed up by the Japanese invasion and occupation of 1/3 of the Hawaiian Islands. You'd need that to happen for your analogy of the Russian invasion to Pearl Harbor to make sense.
Midway is where we destroyed 4 of Japan's best carriers (Kaga, Akagi, Soryu and Hiryu), and sent their compliment of airmen, sailors, and experienced flight crews to the bottom. They never recovered.
That was 83 years ago today. Fifteen minutes ago in the grand scheme of things.
What do you feel this unnecessary detail added to the discussion?
Sorry, moderator, I thought the anniversary was worth noting. Please forgive me, that was thoughtless.
Let’s give VZ the nukes he needs to finish Putin/Hitler!
John Bolton has entered the chat
Yes, let's have nuclear war. For democracy.
Make the world safe - for cockroaches.
Only after you join the front lines.
You are lying.
Yes! Good response.
My thought as well.
Putin should be asking himself, what else do the Ukrainians have up their sleeves.
It’s not that Ukrainians are smarter than Russians. It’s that smart Russians aren’t helping the war effort: because they understand that a Putin victory in Ukraine would be a defeat for Russia. Just as a victory by the Junta in the Falklands War would have been a defeat for Argentina, destroying all hopes for a transition to democracy.
Whether or not Trump knew about the attack in advance, it was very much in sync with his recent harsh rhetoric about Putin. Trump recognizes (and may have always recognized) that Putin, who responded to Trump’s peace efforts by escalating attacks on civilians, is the main obstacle to peace. Putin will agree to peace only when he starts losing ground.
Who are these "smart" Russians? And where are they hiding? And why are they being so niggardly with their brainpower?
They're the smartest people in Russia and they're also stuck-up snobs? That's not good.
You know, the “smart” people who all do as they’re told and believe whatever makes them more money no matter the risk, in support of the same international rules based order that is deciding everything we see in the shit-media and all the politicians we are allowed to vote for. Because they haven’t killed enough of us yet. For democracy.
Funny you should mention Midway, 83 years ago today.
I'm guessing Ukraine did not act alone. The whole thing stinks of MI6 or other possible provocateur involvement.
After all, isn't the EU putatively against settling the conflict? Haven't they been promising to "continue supporting"?
That Zelenskyy stated that the effort had been 18 months in the planning speaks volumes. That means it's been in the works since January 2024.
It seems extremely unlikely that no-one in the US government (read: CIA, etc.) was unaware of this plan. Back in January 2024, candidate Trump was still besieged with lawfare and, in my guess at least, people in the WH probably figured they'd have victory in November.
The abject cluelessness -- or utter confabulation -- of people like Maddow and Wallace is starkly illustrated by the utterance, "Trump is moving the country away from what the people want it to be."
These people really are ghouls and lunatics.
Here's a question: Putin engaged in a barrage of missile strikes the week prior. Is it possible he got wind of this (i.e., Ukrainian) attack and was looking to pre-empt it?
Of course they didn't act alone. Ukraine has all of the military acumen and experience of a model UN event at Harvard
Heh. The Zelenskyy regime is corrupt and ham-fisted but there are a lot of sharp people in Ukraine. But, yes, the regime itself is rotten to the core.
The part that got me was the logistics: getting the drones within striking distance and in particular the communications network needed to control them.
I'm pretty sure Ukraine has been relying on (Musk's) Starlink [sp?] for a lot of their communications. But would that network coverage extend deep into Russia.
Sorting out the logistics of the attack might reveal who and what resources were used.
Given the EU's recent vocal support for the conflict, this attack seems primarily an attack on the peace initiatives pushed by the Trump admin. The planes and airfields attacked were not, as far as I can tell, really needed by Russia for the Ukraine conflict -- so this attack is as such a clear escalation and extension of the conflict. Which might be what the Neocons and the EU want.
yes, this isn't a "bombers" war, it's a drone-motorcycle-humvee-soldier war. if Russia used their bombers on Kiev it would take five minutes to destroy utterly
Excellent point. Why are others not discussing this? If we could flatten Baghdad 20 years ago using 20 years ago weaponry, Russia could obliterate the city without using nukes.
And now it might.
Nostradamus weighs in with a cloudy forecast.
Remember when the noble countries of the west hated Ukraine, and consistently ranked it among the most corrupt nations (worse than Putin's Russia)? I know it's hard to recall things from 5 years ago--especially for professional media.
No, we don't. Enlighten us, please.
Odd claim, given they have been fighting Russia to a stalemate for quite some time.
That's no stalemate. Russia could destroy Kiev in a matter of minutes if they wanted to. They've been holding back.
Apparently Putin is a man of infinite patience since he’s held back for more than three years.
I know you are trying to be snarky, but this is actually correct. He doesn't want to escalate into a larger worldwide conflict and he doesn't want to make Ukraine into a failed state on his own border when the war is over.
hilarious take, thanks
How many ICBMs you figure russia has?
And why has Russia been holding back? Putin's in one of his more expansive moods?
Putin's chivalry knows no bounds!
No, I am largely correct. You're out of your mind if you believe Ukraine would have done anything but surrender after a couple of months of grinding death if the.US didn't get involved immediately. What sort of show of strength did UK display after Crimea was annexed? This is a proxy war waged by a regency government for a cabal of progressive idiots and neocon, mostly Zionist bureaucrats. I don't care about the Zionism but let's not kid ourselves where the nation building that W repudiated publicly and privately backed to the hilt came from. We are the sugar daddy to Zelensky's sexy "democracy first" girl.
You must be either a Russian or something similarly ignorant of history and possessing a low IQ to believe that Russia could force anyone this side of five Georgians mounted on bicycles to surrender.
At least not until grinding through the entirety of Ukraine's civilian population. Which they would do without batting an eye.
Lots of brave and smart people in Ukraine. I've known many Ukrainians here in Chicago.
The Zelenskyy regime might be a completely corrupt confederacy of dunces but they've also got a LOT of "third party support".
But there's no doubt that the people of Ukraine are the one suffering in all this.
Stalemate=UC warhawk word for "front line keeps moving backwards"
We suffer 10:1 casualties and are a tenth the population of our enemy, but we are winning. At least me and my corrupt friends here are - sorry every man in your family is dead now.
Cash me leaving last helicopter out of the country like Ghani - the briefcase overflowing with USDs is backpay - NOT a testament to my corruption.
There's a missing jar of ketamine from Elon Musk's medicine cabinet? Or maybe from the glove compartment of one of his flying saucers?
Noticing that Big Daddy Vladimir and his army of Manly Macho Men Of Manliness hasn’t won a war in three years against a country 1/3 its size — and that Russia STARTED this war and wants to invade all of Europe — is anathema to Taibbi and his myrmidumbs here. Big Macho Men always win everything and when they don’t it’s unfair to hurt their pweshush widdle fee-fees by telling said Big Machi Men that they haven’t won.
Karen cheers nuclear destruction of all life on earth just to spite Trump and men in general.
a truly sad and pathetic human being.
I’m sorry someone hurt you Karen, but why must the every living creature suffer and die for your revenge.
for the love of God and all of humanity, please stop your hatred. the world is now closer to nuclear war than any time in our history and you are gloating?
I am not cheering nuclear destruction but I still fail to see your posituonnas anything but ‘the dictators always win and can kill anyone they want to.’ Putin invaded Ukraine and Ukraine is fighting for their lives. Tell Putin to withdraw his troops.
Now, here's some top-shelf MAGA gaslighting.
Bill Clinton started this war and it has been continued by a bunch of evil f@cks ever since. Yeah, maybe Putin can't "win" the war by occupying Ukraine, but the damage they can do is immense. If you need historical examples think, Afghanistan and Iraq for recent US 'wins'.
Two Republican wars and Clinton’s acceptance of Newt Gingrich’s expansion of NATO do not equal Putin invading Ukraine.
Why is Russia entitled to ‘respect’ when England and France — which have their own nukes — are not?
Hello, Victoria Nuland, how is Columbia treating you? Do you see Jeffrey Sachs often?
Man-hating feminist in the house.
I am brave enough to face a place full of wife-beaters. You piss yourself n terror if there’s more than one woman in any room and especially if she’s past age 20. Your pee pee quits working at the site of a woman with her own driver’s license.
The US and NATO "started" this war in 2014, if not earlier.
While you could go back to WWII when many (the majority?) of Western Ukrainians supported the NAZIs (Biden's UkroNAZIs are their ideological descendants), the proximal cause was the Orange Revolution in the winter of 2004/2005. The CIA overturned the election of Yanukovych (claiming the election was corrupt-- imagine, corruption in Ukraine!) and essentially installed Yushchenko, an American trained banker married to an American citizen, a State/CIA official. When Obama put VP Biden in charge of Ukraine in 2009, UkroNAZIs came to power and de-Russification began in earnest-- eradication of Russian language, Russian culture and ethic Russian Ukrainians began. Yushchenko named Stepan Bandera "Hero of Ukraine", however with Biden (and Nuland, Pyatt, etc), the CIA and UkroNAZIs running Ukraine, Yushchenko re-ran for President in 2009/2010 in an UN-PROCTORED election and received <7% of the vote. Yanukovych once again won. Despite American handlers-- the Podesta Group, Greg Craig (Obama's council) and Paul Manafort-- US Puppet Yanukovych made the blatant mistake of playing the EU against Russia. Putin, with much more to lose, gave him a much better deal, and within three months Yanukovych was overthrown by Biden and the UkroNAZIs in Maidan February, 2014, and the Ukrainian shelling of the Donbas started to kill off ethnic Russian Ukrainians who supported the democratically elected Yanukovych.
Much is made of the 50,000 or so demonstrators in Maidan (out of Ukraine's 45 million), "mostly peaceful" (the hundreds shot but less than 100 killed by UkroNAZIs), possibly funded by USAID? Nuland claimed the US had spent $5 billion for the Coup. The only popular President elected since then was TV star Zelensky on his "Peace with Moscow" platform, quickly discarded as were future Elections. Ukraine is now an "American Democracy!" (freed like Libya).
Do you understand how utterly stupid you sound? Is your other handle NWCitizen?
Ǎøoaą
Then why is the Ukrainian army giving the Russian army--an army that by multiple degrees is much larger and much better armed than they are---a difficult time of it on the battlefield?
Hmmm?
Three guesses…a) the Ukraine army is just the best, b) Russia is bereft of leadership and it’s like a Mr Bean episode over there, c) we have given Ukraine a shit ton of money, sent endless weapons, CIA assets, leaders within the Army and actual armed forces into neighboring countries to train Ukrainian soldiers, teach them how to fly our planes, war plan etc,
The Russians will mount a response, likely not nuclear but the Ukrainians will surely pay a terrible price. That’s the very definition of escalation. There is no doubt Putin could use conventional weapons to completely level Kiev. The only possible choices are for a negotiated settlement or devastation in Ukraine, so it’s just unfathomable that they aren’t willing to accept a deal asap or even negotiate in good faith.
It is my belief, Matt, that too many people have played too many video games or watched too many movies and have lost touch with what happens in real life. The fact that Putin has nuclear weapons just flies right over their bobble heads. At 82, I'm still familiar with the last stages of WWII and the cold war and the real fear of another Hiroshima. Thank you for your serious evaluation of the current attitude about this horrible war.
🎯
This is not real to people. It's a movie ... until it isn't.
Well put.
In fact, this begs the question: if the parties involved (n.b., the plural, not just Ukraine) had figured out this way to attack strategic Russian resources, why show their hand now?
That is, as you very clearly describe, there will be a response and Russia could likely flatten Ukraine with just conventional weapons. At this point, I don't think Trump wants to get involved in any escalation and I don't think the EU has either the materiel or popular support to get involved in a fully-fledged war.
So why execute this attack now? They've shown their hand that they could pull it off but one can be sure that Russia will take all possible measures to thwart anything similar in the future.'
This paints Ukraine into a corner: it would seem they basically have to accept a peace deal that they might not have needed to prior.
It would seem that Putin can declare that he specifies the condition of the peace (e.g., he gives back no captured territory and NATO cannot include Ukraine) OR he just levels Ukraine.
There is actually a lot of doubt that he could. He’d have to get artillery within 20-30 miles of the city, which they tried to do in the beginning of the war, with much newer and more capable hardware, as well as regular troop formations not stuffed with criminals and North Koreans. That failed miserably and forced them to retreat. Tough to see their current ground forces succeeding where their “best” failed in the beginning.
From the air they’d need to carpet bomb it repeatedly. Given they can’t get their air craft anywhere near Ukrainian air defense networks that’s not an option. That’s why they use their bombers, which are mix use (conventional and nuclear) to launch cruise missiles from hundreds of miles out, typically releasing those weapons well in Russian territory.
Putin has already leveled cities in Ukraine. He’s not holding back.
Their doctrine is basically to shell with artillery until nothing is left standing, then advance infantry and armor to the rubble and bring the artillery up to repeat.
This is fair.
They haven't changed their strategy in 80 years.
Worked well against the Germans, not so well against Afghanis or Chechens.
Why is ‘Russia could withdraw’ never an option?
A reasonable sounding question if it weren't for the facts.
The answer is because Clinton, Bush II, Obama, and Biden never withdrew in their steady march to take apart Russia, a land of great resources. A big plum on their list was Ukraine. Even Trump in his first term was persuaded to unilaterally cancel an important nuclear treaty with Russia, just as Bush had done in 2002.
These men, backed up by their various male and female advisors and operatives, pushed NATO to Russia's front porch in open defiance of the promises which had ended the cold war.
Obama started the Ukraine war in 2014 when he overthrew the legitimate government of Ukraine by using the same characters (one of them the war-mongering woman Victoria Nuland) that Bush used in his 2003 destruction of Iraq.
According to the former head of Ukraine's military when the Russians invaded in 2022, General Valerii Zaluzhnyi, the war started with Obama's coup of 2014, although preparations had already been made as far back as the Minsk Accords circa 2008, which (female) Angela Merkel later admitted were a ruse to give NATO a chance to build up the Ukrainian military for a future conflict.
Russia, for its part at that time was simply asking for Ukraine to be neutral, much like Austria has been for decades.
After the Obama coup (overseen by V-P Biden) a program of ethnic cleansing/civil war was started by the long-existing neo-nazi elements we put in power there, while American or Western corporations like Monsanto moved in to snatch up rich farmland previously denied them by earlier Ukrainian law. The majority ethnic Russian-Ukrainians in the Donbas region demanded autonomy from the new American-installed regime. They were not to have it. Some 15,000 people were killed there in eight years of NATO-supported war prior to Putin finally declaring his Special Military Operation to invade and protect them, as well as remove the generations-long neo-nazi elements from Ukrainian government, and insure Ukraine's neutrality.
What is amazing (or not?!?) is that this history is far from obscure.
The facts you state (I elsewhere added a reference to William Burns 2008 message to Condoleezza Rice) are well known and have been so for...decades!
It arguably began-or-accelerated with the immediately-broken "promise" of James Baker to Mikhail Gorbachev that if Germany re-united, NATO would not push eastward.
The sequence of events and their pretty obvious implications seem to either escape people or are willfully ignored. It's wild, and tragically so for so many people caught in the middle.
Excellent description of the history that got us here.
Anyone saying "special military operation" unironically is quite obviously lying (are you an ivan or a useful idiot?) but it is always amusing to see how it does not even occur to Russians that nobody likes them for their own reasons (just try spending 5 minutes downwind of one) and not because Americans told them to.
That will not happen, thats why. Live in the real world.
So Russia gets to invade a country, that country is not allowed to fight back, and no one can suggest that Russia stop invading. The Real World is a place where dictators rule and everyone else has to follow their orders regardless.
“America goes not abroad seeking monsters to destroy. She is the well wisher to the freedom and independence of all”
John Quincy Adam’s
This has been a conflict in American foreign policy since its inception. After the debacles over the last 50 years I am firmly in John Quincy Adam’s camp. Focus on our country. Interact with the world but avoid foreign entanglements and wars. Conserve our treasure( debt over 35 trillion😩😩😩) and blood.
Iraq x 2, Afghanistan, Panama, Granada, Vietnam, Libya, Syria....shall we continue the list of countries the U.S. has used military solutions to overthrow?
Russia has a valid reason to invade though. They were provoked
Please look up Cuban missile crisis
Sure, they could, but what incentive does Russia have to withdraw? From their perspective, they are slowly but surely achieving their goals. Of course you can suggest they stop, but what's going to make them? What many people (including people in the current US admin) are saying is that further escalating the violence is not working, that people are dying needlessly, and that there needs to be a political solution to end it. Perhaps it's wrong, but one definition of insanity is trying the same thing and expecting a different result. I welcome a different approach to ending the bloodshed.
Ukraine could withdraw from the oblasts that don't belong to Ukraine.
Ukraine shelled the Donbas republics for 8 years, with NATO gleefully approving and the CIA providing targeting information.
Kosovo doesn't want to be part of Serbia, so we bomb the Serbs. Donbas and Crimea don't want to be part of Ukraine, so we shell the Donbas.
Palestine doesn't want to be part of Israel, so we equip the Israelis.
'Cept that there is no such thing as Lugandon republics.
Because they don't have any reason to follow your female orders.
So you do hate women. Just like Taibbi and Kirn.
I'd love to have a chat with any past BFs or GFs or yours. Assuming there are any survivors.
Are you a parody?
Cuban middle crisis is a very apt analogy. The US would not stand for USSR missiles in Cuba, and there’s no reason to expect Russia to accept NATO missiles in Ukraine. Russia is entitled to protect a reasonable sphere of influence as the US has done since the 1800s with the Monroe Doctrine. Also, after the Iraq invasion fiasco, the US has forfeited its right to complain about other powers’ aggressive actions.
Russians definitely will bomb a few more schools and hospitals. Might even find something else that does not shoot back and makes a good target for the brave Russians. But they have been doing that for years now so what's new.
It is quite fathomable though why people lacking any principles and convictions would be at loss trying to understand why someone might keep fighting against an enemy that denies their very existence...
I thought that was because Ukrainians had attempted to take out his helicopter with drones -- another operation that Trump hadn't even heard about, until a reporter brought it to his attention.
Good point.
I think it’s time we leave this war to the Europeans.
This move obviously means escalation; Putin will respond. Question is, what happens when Putin flattens a major city?
Considering the CIA has been in there for over a decade setting up shop it's got to be them supporting Ukraine on this score.
Logical assumption
The Ukrainians had help with their drone operation--ya, no shit. Contact the CIA-- maybe they'll hire you as a "stringer."
And the illegal occupation ends when the Russians retreat back across the border to the motherland, or are defeated on the battlefield. And they will be, eventually.
Very, very simple.
Lindsey Graham, I now realize, is as evil as they come. Pity his name's not German, or a lot more people would see him for just what he is.
There are people way worse than Germans. Many of them live right here in the good ole USoA.
I never meant to say otherwise; in fact, I was directly acknowledging Anglo-American prejudices.
This may no longer be true, but last I was informed, German-Americans are the single largest ethnic demographic in the US; the influence of centuries of politics between German- and Anglo-Americans, culminating in de facto ethnocide upon the former during and just after WWI, may be one of the most consequential threads in the country's history, and yet it's almost never brought up.
Which Anglo-American prejudices are you referring to? Yes, there are lots of Germans who immigrated to the US and I think you are right they may be still the largest ethnicity followed by black or African-American. If you include all the mostly white ethnicity of European-Americans its 63%. Are you saying that Americans of German and Anglo descent committed ethnocide of Germans during WWI? Was that ethnocide or simply war?
A) I only meant as in, if you heard someone was named "Umlaut Von Schwanstucker" or something, American voters could more readily associate it with genocide and warmongering when there's no logical reason that should be any less true of English or Gaelic names.
B) You misunderstand, I was referring strictly to the home-front. Consider why German heritage is so common in America, yet hardly anyone here is fluent in German; monoligualism is neither normal nor beneficial (Silver Lining: It did sort of give us Groucho Marx). English-VS-German sentiment was also a factor in the Prohibition movement, so like I said, long shadow.
Got it. And it wasn't just the Germans who were effectively ethnocided during that period. Swedes and Norwegians and others whose language might be confused with German were also under pressure to suppress their use of it and bring up their kids to be purely English-speaking Americans. My father's family, born in the aftermath of WWI, never got to learn their parents' language for that reason.
More broadly, the push to homogenize everyone into English-speaking Americans at that time not only wiped out almost all the European ethnic enclaves, but also the hundreds of different languages spoken by native American Indian communities, that were not spoken anywhere else. Nearly all of those are now lost forever.
My last name is German. On both mom and dad sides. But we're such mutts we don't even know where we came from. On both sides. Maybe Switzerland a couple of hundred years ago, maybe Strasbourg a bit later. There's a Wales connection in there somewhere too. I think we're clean.
My family always claims Alsatian, just to avoid conflict.
My family is originally from heartland PA, so conflict wasn't even an issue. It was when i lived in NJ and NY, and later had some middle eastern students in my grad school classes that it became an issue of curiosity.
As a German immigrant in Canada, I agree with you 100%.
the Germans learned from the Americans.
Learned what, Alex. If you got something to say spit it out.
Danube Swabian here...
Welcome!
He should be arrested.
...just to start with.
I was going to say the same ie Japan. Since the dumbass Zelinsky only knocked out 1/3 of the bombers what happens if the other 2/3 carry out a Dresden or Doolittle type raid on Kiev?
The firebombing of Dresden killed around 25,000 civilians and burned much of an entire city. The Doolittle raid was intended to boost morale but was insignificant. Dresden (or Hiroshima) is the apt comparison.
Thank you. There is a ton of history involved in this mess. And most people don't understand or don't want to understand history...especially the history of Europe over the millennia. The whole continent hates each other.
it wasn't anywhere near 1/3. like 8 planes out of hundreds available.
That's an uncomfortably apt comparison as can be deduced with basic reasoning.
Many people in the west--including politicians and news media--seem to be deluded into thinking that the population in Russia is against the war and chomping at the bit to boot Putin out. There surely are some Russians who feel that way--especially Russian students here in the west-- but I don't see evidence that the Russian population at large is viewing it that way. I can't see how this attack achieves any reasonable strategic gain unless the so called strategy is to escalate and perpetuate. Even for the most ardent anti-Putin Westerners the only strategy that makes any sense is to admit that we failed to exert sufficient pressure to avoid the war in the first place, further admit in view of these incredible fuck ups that Russian territorial gains cannot be completely reversed, and to end the war as awkwardly as possible for Putin... and to continue thereafter to exert international pressure that makes Putin's regime as uncomfortable and as unsustainable as possible--this attack achieves nothing of the sort as far as I can tell. Maybe this is the kind of tactic that would make sense for a long term war strategy of death, attrition and destruction--but this is prima facie the worst possible strategy for Ukraine as even the most obnoxious insipid armchair strategist can see (yes, yes i know....that would be me at this moment). Especially if one assumes a modicum of Russian patriotism in the populace. Looks to me like this kind of action can only rile the Russian public and hence your comment is disturbingly on point. I really wanted to view it as knee jerk or reactionary, but the foregoing thoughts prevent me from seeing it in that light.
(Disclaimer: I fully see Putin's war as criminal and immoral to the highest degree, and I am 100% pro Ukraine and want the very best for Ukraine and for Europe. I also think it is evident that Putin is intentionally destroying Ukraine. That may not have been his original goal but it seems pretty clear that if he can't have it he wants to break it to bits and so weaken it.)
You seem reasonable (unlike some of your other responders), so I invite you to consider you have been lied to.
1. It's not an "unprovoked war of aggression" that came out of nowhere in 2022. It was DELIBERATELY provoked, and has been brewing since 2014 when the US staged a coup in Ukraine so it could be used as an expendable catspaw. "Supporting" Ukraine in this conflict effectively means the dead-opposite of what you intend it to. This has all been well-documented, and some "Western" officials have even admitted to at least parts of it.
2. Read almost any story in "Western" mainstream media about Ukraine from circa 2015 to early FEB 2022, and you will see a dismal picture of corruption and neo-Nazis. Ask yourself why such a consistent picture vanished in the blink of an eye.
3. Talk to Russians; they'll compare this to the American Civil War, this is sad for them. THEY care about Ukrainians. NATO couldn't care less.
3a. Ask yourself why the budget for "supporting" Ukraine is limitless while there's somehow no money for anything else (except Israel, see below); you don't REALLY think NATO's some kind of selfless (let alone self-mutilating, like the Christian-mythology pelican) charity, do you?
3b. Ask yourself why the Iron Curtain has re-fallen, yet in the opposite direction; the Russian government/corporations never silenced US, yet ours silenced THEM. This should make it obvious which side has something to hide from its own people.
4. Put tersely, we're the bad guys over here. This here explains both Gaza AND Ukraine very well: https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/uk-badenoch-blurts-truth-west-gaza-proxy-war
5. Just to put a button on this, ask yourself why THE UKRAINIANS THEMSELVES are no longer supporting this war: https://x.com/AlternatNews/status/1927321025940804047
So if you were the Ukrainian government and head of the armed forces, your strategy would be to give Putin everything he wants rather than continue to fight for the country's sovereignty by doing things like disabling Russia's air power?
... disabling 1/4 or less of its airpower, some of that likely temporary. Do you think Russia does not still have enough capacity to start - if not nuclear attacks - then WWII level mass bombings of Ukraine's remaining cities/infrastructure/population?
If you were the Ukrainian government, you would be looking for a way to survive this fight and try to find a way to prevent the next one.
they HAVE done that, but the Russians won't agree to any kind of security guarantee for Ukraine in the future so Putin leaves them with no choice but to fight back as best they can.
Russia should not be trusted to adhere to any sort of security guarantee. Ukraine needs to develop the sorts of economic relationships with EU, US, etc. that makes it too costly for Russia to bite off another chunk and if this insane fiasco is the "best they can", they are going to lose anyway.
Ukraine already has a deep economic relationship with the U.S. and EU: we're paying for their military and their economy right now. We pay their pensions, their government salaries, and just about everything else.
I think you’re discounting the psychological effect of this attack on the Russian brass and Putin’s regime. 1. They will immediately start suspecting each other and purge anyone who looks suspicious, which means mostly random people who have beefs with other random people, a tactic which never helps mission cohesion. 2. This is the kind of thing insurgencies can do quite well, even if it’s a smaller scale. Imposing a settlement on Ukraine means creating a large class of insurgents. (See: the IRA, the PLO, Hamas, and plenty of others.) Russia has lots of smart people in it and a few of them work for Putin so it’s safe to assume some of them know this. The USSR even bankrolled insurgents so there should some institutional memory.
The message of this attack is much more complex than Taibbi makes it appear.
I agree with you.... but this particular tactic makes no sense to me especially at the political layer. But I am honestly super open to arguments as to what I am missing.
Ukraine refuses to guarantee they won't host NATO bases, deep strike weapon systems, and troops.
I think Putin is focused on perpetuating his regime and legacy and is totally willing and able to do it at Russia's expense to the extent that he feels able to pull it off without being ousted by his own henchmen. That is a typical authoritarian mindset and I see no evidence that Putin is exceptional in this sense. Is that your read also?
Broadly, yes. I think that, unless the West totally screws things up (and leftists are leaning that way, so don't discount that possibility) the risk of the Genghis Khan, Napoleon, Hitler type wannabe world conquerors has ended. Nuclear weapons and economic interdependence simply create too much leverage for deterrence.
Within that context, I think even someone as twisted as Putin is limited to far more limited conquest ambitions. He is limited to minor incursions where there will not be enough threat to the major powers to inspire a direct response (see Iraq/Kuwait where the risk to oil led to a massive combined response). It helps if he can also find covering arguments of provocation, even if a bit weak. There was a promise to limit NATO expansion which was not upheld and there was limited separatist motivation for Russian heritage people living in the Crimea and Ukraine. I don't really see those as legitimate casus belli but, in a world where the UN can support terrorist causes, it is not crazy to try to mitigate an attempted conquest with these excuses.
Good points. Thanks. It's fun to encounter a thinky person who actually wants to converse and exchange thoughts in these forums!! When I started doing chats on substack I thought there would be much more of this sort of back and forth. I love Matt Taibbi's readers and Trigonometry's fans as well, and there are clearly a lot of smart folks in this forum. On this particular topic I would be remiss if I failed to admit I inherit the Lion's share of my thoughts on this topic from Stephen Kotkin. I do put a LOT of time and attention to the other well known voices such as Mearsheimer and Sachs et al...and still I think that Kotkin stands out head and shoulders above them. I am kind of amazed that he does not garner more deference from the Public Intellectual Industrial Complex. He gives expertise a good name! :) :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ot4OPfWZubM&t=3044s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZD8BhZEJcjI&t=3003s
This talk is a real gem!! Would be interested to hear your take...I found this to be incredibly helpful.....seems to be fairly validating towards your remarks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umIg0mrsZBs
Lavrov and Putin are the grown ups in the room.
Lavrov is incredibly impressive. In his profession he runs circles around most Western diplomats with his skills. In a world where great powers face off against each other with competing interests he is the gold standard for championing his cause. I gotta respect that even in cases where I believe his cause does not align with ours. Putin strikes me as a very straight ahead authoritarian and a bad actor, but he is most certainly an adult and that's just what and who we are dealing with...it would be for the best if Western stakeholders would meet this dangerous moment with seriousness of thought and purpose.
they have every right to continue fighting even till all they have left to defend is a few square kilometers near the polish border. maybe by then lyndsey Graham and Keir starmer will suit up and come fight with them.
The leaders aren't fighting for anything but how much money they can loot to fund their post-war retirement.
Ukraine tried to run a monetary incentive recruitment campaign for the 18-24 demographic that doesn't face mandatory conscription...yet, but it failed miserably.
Ukraine's army is largely conscripts, and they fight and bribe hard to get assignments to REMF positions or drone teams.
The defensive war is a cloud of drones covering up a critically small infantry contingent.
It's been three years, and despite all the "recruitment" and western equipment donations, Ukraine effectively has three mechanized brigades, which is what they started the war with. They're taking big losses and vastly underreporting them, while making absurd claims about 1,000,000 dead Russians because they know most western outlets and politicians are going to happily cling to that number.
That is not a useful question, it's a rhetorical position based entirely on assumptions about Ukraine and Russia.
They didn’t disable Russia’s air power. They disabled maybe a half dozen obsolete nuclear bombers whose only purpose was for show. Russia still rules the skies over Ukraine. Russian glide bombs can still destroy entire apartment complexes, and Russia still has a massive supply of these weapons. Russian aircraft can fly at will. Where are those F-16s that were going to reverse the situation? They were nowhere to be found because if they were found they would be immediately shot down.
no. definitely not.
When the war ends and the Ukrainians living in Europe don't move back to Ukraine, it will be a bit clearer as to what the real desire of the people in western and central Ukraine was from the beginning: not living in Ukraine.
Ukranian population growth rate is .7. That accounts for war dead and the greater number of war refugees.
At this rate, Ukraine’s population will decline by 97% over the next decade.
US neocons started this war so they could get rich selling weapons and exploiting Ukraine’s energy reserves.
Moronic Americans who believe everything they are told jumped on board for another trendy cause that gave them new flags to put into their bios. Most Americans with the Bandar flag in their bio have no idea where Ukraine is or when it became an independent country or what the Battle of Prokhorovka was and who won it. (It’s still a salient issue!!)
Agree. Well put arguments
"unless the so called strategy is to escalate and perpetuate." This is definitely not a zero probability.
On the same day the "Operation Spiderweb" unfolded, there were two bridges blown up in Western Russia. One of them fell on the train tracks below, while a passenger train was going by. 7 people were killed, more than 100 injured. All of them civilians, including several babies.
The number of casualties would have been higher, if not for the heroic actions of the train engineer. He pushed his assistant into the machine compartment behind, and stayed in front to the very end, applying emergency brakes. He managed to slow down the train, but he is one of those who died.
For obvious reasons, Ukraine kept silent about these terrorist acts, and they were barely mentioned by the MSM.
How do you feel about this? Are they criminal and immoral to the highest degree? Mind you, this is only the latest example of terrorist acts specifically targeting civilian population. How, do you think, Russians feel about it?
I made it perfectly clear that I am against such attacks By Ukraine and its allies on Russian territory.
Would be nice to show some (any) proof that Ukraine had something to do with it, rather than those bridges being in the same state of repair as the rest of Russian infrastructure. At least one of them apparently had some pretty bad inspection results recently.
Russians complaining that some civilians died though is somewhat amusing but... tough titties. Karma's a bitch.
Ah - a representative of a master race here, obviously.
How about some (any) proof that those bridges apparently had some pretty bad inspection results recently. Sure it wasn't Chicago Skyway?
Ah, so any proof that those bridges did not fall down because the are, in fact, Russian bridges, is "the Elder Russian Brother said so."
Who is a Westerner who is not anti-Putin?
Me. I am of Russian extraction, and cannot begin to fathom or accept the absolute insane hatred of the one nation with whom we should be making common cause on a number of issues.
Which issues, exactly, should "we" be making a common cause with a medieval death cult nation?
We should be, but you feel neutrality or positivity towards Putin?
Neutral. However, if I were living in Europe I'd be very grateful for his restraint. As Matt's article indicates, however, it's not at all clear that the Ukraine cheerleaders have enough sense to understand that they're suicidally provoking a retaliatory escalation from which there will be no return.
the war ends tomorrow when Russia decides to stop fighting a war they started and send North Korea home. Imagine, MAGA focuses their ire on Zelensky, meanwhile Russia literally allies with the worst and most evil regime in the entire world, and yet the isolationist crowd is mad at Zelensky for fighting back. Insane.
Zelensky is not a hero. No amount of conservative or liberal chest beating turns him into one. Putin is a criminal but blaming Russia for NATO expansion to their doorstep without recognizing the sheer stupidity of that move (along with very obvious CIA intervention in Chechnya and Georgia) doesn't do us any good and makes the entire world less safe. This is not the movie REDS and we aren't going to show those Russians a thing or two!
Matt is exactly right. Everyone is an analyst, only the analysis is cheerleading and being giddy in the face of Armageddon. My God, cursing Putin does nothing!
Where does Russian expansion stop, if we concede Ukraine? Or Chinese expansion, if the see this and decide to take Taiwan? Do we look out only for our own and provide no assistance to the rest of the world's democracies when they are gobbled up by larger autocratic bully-neighbors? Proximity (or lack thereof) matters, but doesn't principle, or common cause? Shoot, the world is a small enough place, and too many countries (the majority) are comparative basket cases already. Putin only has something to fear from NATO because he is by any reasonable standards a criminal pariah, who doesn't want his own people to see Ukraine demonstrate the alternative of a functioning democracy. If Russia could be too, NATO expansion would have been a non-issue.
So, back to real-politik ... for reasons fair or foul, Putin wants to restore autocratic Russia as a major and, as needed, hostile power with defensible borders ... supposedly next to fall are Georgia and Moldova. What about Poland, or Finland? Are they where it stops? Romania? Or is there a way to peacably partition Ukraine? How is Putin forced to the table, if Ukraine does not get support to deliver a few bloody noses? Does anybody have a long term game plan?
Ukraine isn't just "Country X" and among a succession of targets for Russia.
The disposition of Ukraine is the most important foreign policy issue in Russia. Given the history of European invasions and antagonism toward Russia, their ultimate nightmare is French, German and US tanks sitting on their border. Russia knows that on the other side of Ukraine, you are already into central Europe. They cannot tolerate this situation, and were willing to engage in a very risky war to pursue their security.
So its a totally invalid argument to just pretend ignoring this war will encourage Russia to attack more. There are no other countries in the same circumstances, and it seems ridiculous to justify escalating this war to prevent ones that only exist in your imagination.
I'm not pretending, I'm raising questions based on things I have read or heard from supposedly astute observers. 1) Moldova and Georgia specifically mentioned as additional targets. 2) Russia has the largest borders with a relatively small population, and needs additional territory to reduce their exposure. 3) Of Russia weren't ruled by thugs they needn't have feared having NATO on their borders, in fact they could have it. Admittedly, I'm not sure that's compatible with the Russian psyche.
So, your position is that Ukraine is unique, and not Sudetenland v2? The appeasement stops here?
Putin added 800 miles of NATO on the Russian border with the decision of Finland and Sweden to join…..
Funny how those "European invasions" tend to start with Russia trying to snatch a piece off of its neighbor...
"This is a very special case, only this one time, totally not a slippery slope." Yeah, right. Will work out just as well as "they just want to get married" totally did not lead to well-hung guys shaking their schlongs into girls' dressing rooms. Not to mention that a list of targets is out there, if you only bother to learn some Russian.
I have no idea where Russian expansion stops. Frankly I don't really care in terms of what my country is dealing with. I would argue with the core assumption within the question. We have no idea if Putin plans to push his way into other countries and he has not indicated he will threaten old soviet states beyond Ukraine. I am quite aware that our clandestine services were heavily involved in actions in Chechnya and Georgia that look an awful lot like they were meant to help destabilize both countries and create the illusion that Putin is even more of a warmonger than he obviously is. US foreign policy seems to be that we will do whatever we can to foment war with Russia as the military and CIA run around the planet throwing grenades and committing to color revolution. Whatever the case, there is no way out of a protracted war with the second most powerful military nation on the planet where "we're gonna kick their asses", "we will dust Putin", blah blah blah works. Given that without doubt, America helped plan and execute the drone attacks in Russia without direct authorization, Trump should leave Ukraine entirely.
Nice Reds reference. You don't rewrite what I write. Of course, that line didn't work for me with a college newspaper editor any better than it did for Jack Reed.
Russia did not start this war; the CIA, EU, & NATO started it with the Maidan coup of 2014, and repeatedly admitting more nations on Russia's borders to NATO. There is no way the US would put up with similar behavior on the part of Russia or China on our own borders.
This is the correct answer. Ask people how they would feel about Canada or Mexico being part of the Warsaw Pact (if they even know what it is).
For comparison, I would take it a step further.
Imagine the US lost a foriegn war and as a consequence, Mexico recaptured all the land it lost in the Mexican American war, to include Texas and California. We had an agreement that they could keep it as long as they were not openly hostile and we could retain San Diego as a Naval Yard.
The foreign power we lost to not only pushed Mexico to move offensive weapons into Texas and California, (Ukraine) but also denied us the use of San Diego as a military naval yard (Crimea).
Why is the CIA responsible for the Maidan coup, any more than Russian influence was doubtless involved in installing a Russian puppet? Maybe it was impolitic to meddle in what Russia naturally views as it's sphere of influence, but since WW2 at least, Europe, and defense of democracy, has been ours. I'm not saying it was right, but somewhere it seems like we need to grow a rules based international order, not just let the bullies take over, one domino at a time. What's the game plan for that? I don't believe isolationism is entirely moral or wise.
It’s funny how none of the rules in this “rules based international order” ever seem to apply to the US (or Israel) though.
Yeah - no. Both countries violated the Minsk Accords. Russia this round was the aggressor and attacked. No saints here, and the Biden administration wasn't doing very well either. Putin has been working to re-establish the old Soviet security footprint.
B.S. The Russians did everything possible to avert this war. The negotiations in Instanbul prove this. They simply demanded what we would have demanded in exactly the same situation. Your ideas about "old Soviet security footprint" have been put into your brain by someone else and you think it's your idea.
Oh c'mon. This is ridiculous. They have been moving to do so since Putin was in place. Russia flagrantly ignored Minsk I and II.
Just look at where they have moved. I can read and look at a map. Has the whole area been "mismanaged"? Sure. Are we a part of that? Of course.
But to suggest they did everything to avert this war? That's silly. They did nothing of the sort.
Back in the Soviet days, Russia had its buffer empire-it was called the Warsaw Pact-and Russia intervened militarily at least twice to keep it intact. Not surprisingly, once the USR collapsed the Warsaw Pact nations weren’t keen to remain adjuncts of Russian foreign policy.
Next you’re gonna tell me Russia’s invasion was illegal & unprovoked, aren’t you?
No, I am going to tell you it was an act of war. Which it was. With Russia as the aggressor.
Uh huh.
yawn
BS.
cute the way you omitted Maidan color-change (CIA) and bear-poking for the past decade (Nuland: "f_ck the EU") etc etc etc. you also forgot actual Nazis in Ukraine
Israel is the most evil regime in the entire world. But yeah, North Korea has alot of room for improvement
"the most evil regime in the entire world"? Now THAT is a moronic statement.
You know why we call the shittiest cut of beef a "chuck" steak?
🤣
No one seems to understand here that NATO started this war. There had been three previous agreements since 1991, between NATO and Soviets/Russia, that NATO would not move an inch east. That’s how the Berlin wall came down. It was in agreement. NATO then moved 1000 miles east. They’ve added 20 countries east. That’s not exactly keeping your commitment. NATO was moving into western Ukraine, which Putin considers his front lawn. I don’t blame him. I would defend my country as well.
Graham & Blumenthal = Tweedle Dee & Tweedle Dum
the Pearl Harbor metaphor puts Ukraine(RINO/NATO) in position of Japan and Russia in position of Allies/US. yeah, didn't turn out well for Japan
Your crocodile tears for Ukrainians perishing in defense of their freedom, homes, and families, and the poor invading, aggressing orcs do not impress.
It isn't really the responsibility of aged American public figures to go and fight in defense of Ukraine, but as the leader of the free world, it is the United States' responsibility to oppose criminal aggression and barbarous tyranny.
The USA was the aggressor in 2014. It was a coup.
The good ol' USA has traveled the world since WW2 killing millions in the process. No doubt we provoked Russia into this war as well. Our deep state seems committed to WW3.
BS.
It is our responsibility to take care of Americans.
The criminal aggression started with the Maidan coup in 2014, and continued to escalate as more nations on Russia's borders were admitted to NATO.
You mean like expanding NATO to the point that there is no possibility of avoiding Russian aggression? That sounds empty and not terribly useful when you're standing in the cave of a bear that you're poking with a sharp stick.
No amount of grandstanding about what an awful cur Putin is gets us out of a potential nuclear war that will completely obliterate Ukraine. But yeah, we should be mad at those guys and send more arms into a proxy war.
We overthrew the government of Iraq in 2003, the government of Libya in 2012, and finally succeeded in overthrowing the government of Syria in 2024.
That doesn't even go into our standing policy of interfering in foreign elections, running smear campaigns against politicians we don't like in those countries, and funding and arming dissidents around the world.
Did you feel free of tyranny when Democrat leaders across the U.S. were keeping schools closed, destroying small businesses, and not even allowing people to use the parks and beaches?
Criminal aggression? Look no further than the U.S. which for the last 30 years has created havok in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya, and yes, Ukraine, with our idiotic meddling, coups, regime change, etc.
Your PS was my very first thought when I read the articles calling it Ukraine's Pearl Harbor attack on Russia.
Interesting....Lindsey Graham is the worst....sure the hell hope he gets voted OUT ....
I was thinking something very similar. That visit was an amazing coincidence!
P.S. My thoughts exactly again! Anyone who is celebrating and not preparing for a massive counter is stupid and delusional. The celebration vibe is bizarre.
I’ve winced
I don’t like hyperbolic use of words like “treason”, and I’m not a lawyer, but I do wonder if that line was crossed.
How about some blame for the acting commander in chief who is allowing all of this!
Among global elites, there's no boner like a war boner.
A corruption boner. Stealing the wealth of nations is the ultimate boner for these despicable human beings.
Astute observation. And just as one should never trust a fart, one should never waste a boner.
Truer the older you get.
There’s more to that than what might appear. People can be down right savage!
No one can be as savage as those that hold all the money, all the media, and all the politicians.
Especially a war with ill-defined aims and no logical end. That's like tantric sex to them!
SMH ... Wallace's quote: "Trump is moving the country away from what the people want it to be." I love that no matter how many votes are counted, no matter what the polls say about what the populace wants wrt wwiii, Rachel and Nicole will still sub in their own opinions for those of "the people."
This is a great point. Wallace's quote could be more accurate if changed to:
"Trump is moving the country away from what the elites want it to be."
Exactly. When Nicole Wallace speaks of "the people", she means "the people that count."
HAHA, even better!
Or the people that cunt.
When European kings would ask for the casualties from their side after a battle, they only wanted to know about how many nobles, knights, and other "gentlemen of quality" died. They didn't care how many peasants died outside of how it impacted their ability to continue waging their war.
She is such a moron.
I am pretty sure that Trumps governing policies are appreciated by far more people than are willing to say would support him. If the election was held today, he would get more votes. Mainly from the people who did not believe he would do what he is doing. Especially with DEI and the border.
They always know best, don't they?
Very few Americans understand the enormous strategic implications to the United States of what Ukraine did here, how they did it and how they kept us in the dark. We have been run by madmen. The hangover from the Biden administration may still lead to worldwide annihilation. This attack should lead to the US walking away from this war once and for all, but I fear it will have the opposite effect as the world moronic wing of the GOP reflexively flexes.
Add to that, pull out of NATO.
It's going to have to happen. The Europeans are like the little dog behind the fence who is acting tough because they know they are protected. Remove that fence and they'll roll over and be nice.
Don’t underestimate Europe’s ability to start big wars; they have a track record of doing just that, without US assistance.
Excellent analogy.
Europe is rearming and will wipe up Russia within a decade.
They're collecting a lot of sticks and stones from all the forests they're tearing down to install wind and solar power.
…as apparently Europe is no longer an ally.
Mrs Macron's wig apparently has secret powers. Europe will be fine.
I would pay money to see Mrs. Macron vs. Zelenskyy in a cage match. He's a little punk, like her husband, so the good money's on her.
I agree and would pay for that as well. However, I think the addition of bikinis and green jello would boost the entertainment value.
For very insightful analysis of these events, go to The Duran Podcast.
Despite the best efforts of the neoconservatives in Europe and US, I don’t think they will succeed in goading Russia into overreacting. Russia’s best option is to proceed as they have been, and achieve peace by winning the war this summer.
The Duran is the best source of information on this conflict. I watch all their stuff every day. Following both Alex and Alexander for their daily updates are also great, I never miss a video.
I second this: Alex and Alexander are great for making sense of things.
At tremendous human cost (on both sides). They can play footsie with the behemoth that lives to their south with 25% of the worlds population looking at the resource rich empty wasteland of Siberia. Putin has rained misery on the Russian people.
They don’t look very miserable to me.
And if you think Putin is bad, you don’t want to know the hard-liner who would take his place if the Russian ruling class decides he’s being too nice. That’s the thing you bleeding idiots don’t get. Putin is the “good cop.” He was America’s choice.
We love to display our misery. Most of the world does not. The Russian people have had centuries of bad leadership.
I have my doubts that the Russian people are any more miserable than any other people. I’ve seen videos from Russia. They live in decent housing (smaller than in the US, but their mortgages also don’t go out 30 years). They eat good food. They drive decent cars. It’s not the Soviet Union. As for bad “leadership,” yeah, but ours hasn’t been that hot for the last three to four decades either, as the American standard of living has cratered while the middle class dies a slow agonizing death and the income inequality keeps growing. So I’d be careful about throwing stones while I live in a glass house.
Happiness is internal. Russians have about 1/3 the income of US residents. USA has a life expectancy of 78 vs 72 for Russia (2023 pre-war). As bad as our leadership is, we make more and live longer. Happiness is up to each of us personally. I have seen people who live under a table in the streets of Calcutta with ear-to-ear grins.
Something tells me the Houthis are going to be restocked with some neat new anti-ship missiles and some pristine targeting data soon.
Also won't surprise me if a fishing boat cracks open to reveal a swarm of drones flying into the flight hangar of one of our carriers next time it's near a north African or middle eastern port.
I concur. Nor am I surprised that Graham and his Dem alter-ego were literally in residence for the show.
Call a spade a spade according to Graham around 80 cretins in the senate support his worthless sanctions package. There are fools in both parties.
Moronic is right. Moronic and no skin in the game. A bunch of Neocon a'holes
I’m completely disgusted by the media response. Maddow and Wallace are so sick and twisted. Yet they are so typical of what passes for ‘elites’ and ‘democracy’ in a failing system.
Putin doesn’t even have the balls to go after Zelensky because he knows they will get him. Maybe Americans like you don’t understand the strategic implications of Russia pooping on Trump’s olive branch and making the David Saks wing look wrong, sad and inept.
I saw Rachel Maddow and Nicole Wallace “reflexively flex”. I am in no way a fan of the GOP, but the main reflex I see here is the blaming of them for something they didn’t do.
A piece of good news. Here in SC a lot of people are talking about Lindsey's frequent trips abroad as he tries to be US Secretary of War. People in SC are not happy, and now records of the cost to taxpayers are out. This past trip for Lindsey & his friend Dick cost a little over $800,000. Hopefully Lindsey has finally bitten off more than he can swallow.
Stay tuned!
That IS good, but he deserves a hell of a lot worse than being voted out of office....
South Carolinian here. We’ve been trying to vote this corrupt asshole out for years now. Won’t happen. We have open primaries and a corrupt GOP establishment that has the state system rigged. He’ll be re-elected easily which is why he’s so openly corrupt. He’s protected.
Never say never:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHkPadFK34o
That's not completely true. I won't go into it here but there are avenues available. What Congressional district are you in? I'm in 4th.
We are in the 5th. I’d love to know what to do about it, other than vote.
Ahh, is Ralph going to run for Governor or against Lindsey? I heard both rumors over the last year or so.
In case you are interested, at the end of each week Congress is in session I publish a Substack listing the recorded votes for all SC Rep's/Senator's; I add no comments. Subscribe if you are interested in receiving them and once the stage comes more into focus concerning Lindsey's race I'll elaborate with a post on the system you cited here.
https://open.substack.com/pub/conservativecontrarian/p/south-carolina-congressional-votes-b08?r=982y8&utm_medium=ios
Yeah, I think Norman will but I’ll believe it when I see it.
He can be defeated. But someone has to try.
No doubt!
Something about Lindsey tells me he can swallow a lot more than the average dude....
As Matt Von Swol, who’s been documenting the response to Hurricane Helene here in WNC, points out, Lindsey Graham lives 1.5 hours from us, yet hasn’t bothered to visit since the storm. And how many trips has he taken to Ukraine in the past 8 months?
I'm a little south of you, we were hit pretty hard but compared to your area we dodged a bullet. Lindsey's a joke, hopeful soon to be found in the ash-bin of history.
Nobody cares what the people of SC want or think. They can have corporate imperialist muppet Team R or corporate imperialist muppet Team D.
That goes for all States. If you are in SC and want to win, call yourself R. The problem is that once in, they become lifers. We need to put an end to that. Somehow we managed in TN.
Works for me, surprised you cared enough to comment.
Hope he goes down and take tricky dicky blumenthal with him!
On the positive side, Richard Blumenthal can finally say he has been to a war zone
I live in SC, too. Lindsey is a psycho and needs to go.
He’s an excellent swallower.
Truly one of the best AWS drops of all of all time Matt. You and Walter did an outstanding job exposing the political war pigs in our government as well as our corrupt & and psychopathic corporate media. You guys are national treasures.
https://x.com/evans_wroten/status/1929673650325614614?s=46
Does anyone believe that Ukraine did not use western technology to make this happen? Why would Ukraine build drones with all English in the displays like "failsafe?" Where did they get the satellite images of the damage? Also, we know they were receiving NATO help including targeting help from earlier reports. This is a very dangerous situation that those two overpaid giddy morons can barely comprehend. It is so dumb to analyze whether this makes Trump look bad or whether he "backed" the wrong side. This is not a football game, it is a war with nuclear implications. The premise behind mutually assured destruction was that before your bombs hit, the other side would launch. This situation enhances the risk of a "use it or lose it" situation where the Russians have an incentive to use weapons, including nukes, before they can be destroyed by drone strikes. It is not a good thing. It is an escalation and a more dangerous situation irrespective of whether the Russians deserve it.
Likely the Europeans were involved. Trump should threaten to temporarily suspend NATO Article 5 mutual defense if they keep undermining his attempts to negotiate a peace deal. That would get their attention.
Trump will do no such thing because Europe is doing what he sent Sec Def Hegseth over there to tell them to do.
I had a similar response as to whom was “humiliated.” Who cares who got humiliated?
Yes- TV Screen showing several nuclear explosions in western cities. Anchor Nicole Wallace: "Rachel, this will have to hurt Trump's poll numbers..." Rachel, giggling, "yes, and it will be hard to keep the House in 2026!" I mean how farfetched is this? They did it with the pandemic. It is mentally ill.
Sick it is.
I think many if not most Americans have no idea what is at stake globally from this war. It boils down to people having a 9th grade understanding of history, being fairly self absorbed and frankly untethered to reality. iPhones, Youtube and lattes have supplanted books, collective memory of fearful times and humility as coin of this realm. Even forty year olds don't remember truly frightening points in history like Vietnam or the Bay of Pigs. My folks and my in-laws worried throughout the Vietnam war that their sons would be drafted. GIs came back from there changed completely. Two decades later, the Gulf War simply didn't have that influence on Americans. It lasted 30 seconds and we lost almost no lives. We are soft and complain about soft things. And so, for most people it's, "If you hit me, my dad is going to punch your dad in the face" with no nuance of what could come out of this war. Maddow and Wallace are both too young, far too certain and frankly too uninformed to truly get the reality of the time we're living in. I would guess so are the proudly uninformed commenters regarding Matt and Walter's fear. Or perhaps they just don't give a shit and are part of the problem. Either way, we have a lot of soft hands talking glibly about a situation that they can't conceive of being involved in.
What is frightening is how easily our government has decided it will simply commit to increasing our deficit and depleting our arms to involve itself in a grinding war of attrition. And if Putin sends a small nuke into Ukraine or obliterates a city with a giant missile strike, then what?
I actually grew up in the 70s and 80s but studied Vietnam (and history in general, particularly WW1, 2, Korea, and the Civil War) and frankly had a dad who was very good at describing how it was. To your point about not knowing or not caring- I think it is a little of both and also not believing it could happen or that it won't be that bad. I keep coming back to this and I hope Matt and Walter eventually see it but there is this "What to do in a nuclear attack" PSA developed by NYC in 2022! It is both frightening and comedy gold. It is like a repurposed "what to do if there is a tornado" PSA. It actually starts, "so there has been a nuclear attack, don't ask me how or why..." Or they think we have magic technology to shoot down all the Russian missiles or intercept the warheads. I do not believe that is the case, especially for those delivered by sub or ICBM. I won't even get into an EMP attack. And btw, I am not sure what we would do if there was a mass drone attack either. Finally, I agree, I feel like we have been trapped into backing a war of attrition that is killing 100s of thousands and costing 100s of billions that we do not have. And yes, to my "use it or lose it" point, what if Putin carpet bombs Kiev with his remaining bombers or worse?
It is the cost of prolonged war. Just as a prisoner in prison has nothing to do all day but think about how to mess with people. War fighters spend their waking moments thinking of ways to inflict misery and mayhem.
Most electronic equipment worldwide has an English menu option so that it can be run by anyone with basic knowledge of English. Chinese drones come with Chinese instructions and English instructions. No one has instructions in Ukrainian. The drones probably were adopted versions of foreign drones from China, because they have great drones at great prices, yes they do. Then the Ukes took them and repurposed them. That is how they "built" them, most likely.
I am dubious of this. Even if what you say is true, that is not what we are being told. We are being told they are building themselves. Furthermore, these are not DJI drones you buy off Amazon. They are delivering significant explosive payloads. Are they buying them on the black market, because China is aligned with Russia, and I doubt they are selling them directly. I am just highly dubious that the Ukrainians are pulling this off alone which is what we are being told. This wreaks of implausible deniability or in common parlance, total BS.
Yes, they supposedly build them themselves. The company is First Contact. It appears that they are not selling to others. They may be buying foreign parts and using them. But yes, an English menu on a Ukrainian drone would be odd.
So I have to agree with you. The company may have innovative tech but is most likely getting help from the US or other Nato countries.
The odds that this will lead to Russia launching a nuclear war seem to me to be very, very low. What would Russia get out of that?
Does it change your calculus if NATO or the West was not involved? If it was little Ukraine fighting an invading army, would you still say, suck it up because nuclear escalation is worse than your country being invaded?
nice. maybe you think Israel can attack others all by themselves too...DERP...
Yes, the nuclear escalation risk part is because of the west's likely involvement. This is not a case of plausible deniability but a case of implausible deniability.
The Russians calculations have not changed. To go nuclear means to directly invite the US into the conflict - which will mean the end of Russia if it went to a logical extreme. Putin knows we are not coming in directly. Our inclusion would end the Ukranian war in about 6 months, perhaps sooner, and Crimea would be back in Ukraine's hands. He doesn't want any of that. The biggest issue is that with this success Ukraine will be even more emboldened to keep up the fight.
There is no justification for comparing Ukraine's attack to 'Pearl Harbor'. It is commonly understood that Ukraine and Russia are at war and therefore the military assets of each are fair targets. On December 7, 1941, the United States was not at war with Japan. To portray Russia as a victim in this is to be grossly misinformed of history.
The comparison is about capacity and what fraction of it was destroyed in one operation, which makes it a pretty interesting one in my book (and I didn’t make it up, it’s everywhere)
At Pearl Harbor, the carriers were out to sea, and the battleships already obsolete. It didn’t really amount to that big a loss in capacity, and like Yamamoto reportedly said, Japan had just woke up a sleeping giant.
There must have been assets within Russia to pull this off, since most of these targets were out of range of Ukraine-based drones. FSB will catch some, no doubt; probably already have.
To your point, six months later, we were already starting to win. And similarly, the bigger Russian danger is nuclear missiles launched from the ground and submarines, not launched from bombers. People have this love affair these days with the term hypersonic missiles. ICBMs and their multiple individual reentry vehicles or MIRVs are hypersonic and have been around for more than 50 years.
Good point about their nuclear delivery—it’s mostly missiles, just like ours. More news distortion, to charge up the public war monger sentiment.
I think the contemporary/colloquial use of "hypersonic" refers to semi-near-range devices. ICBMs, as their name denotes, are inter-continental and leave the atmosphere (which requires higher speeds -- not quite that needed to escape gravity but maybe 2/3 of that).
The point being that the distances involved mean that the launch of an ICBM can be detected well before it arrives. With short-to-medium distance hypersonic missiles...there's putatively no time to react.
Right, but there were intermediate range missiles, Pershing IIs that were based in Europe in the 1980s and had only 5 minutes lead time supposedly. Similar with sub missiles. The hypersonic quality is not just about detection time but also the ability to intercept. So a MIRV, whether it is from an ICBM or IRBM traveling at 13,000 - 18,000 MPH, is much harder to intercept than a bomber or cruise missile traveling at 500-600 MPH or so or even 1500 MPH for that matter.
The comparison to Pearl Harbor is right on the mark. For months before Pearl Harbor, the U.S. was blockading oil imports to Japan, an act of war by itself. Japan had no choice but to attack or go bankrupt. Any geniuses in Washington at the time should have seen the attack coming, but negligently did not. What did Admiral Yamamoto say after Pearl Harbor, “I’m afraid we have awoken a sleeping giant.” Same can be said of today’s Russia.
We desperately wanted them to attack. FDR needed a casus belli to get the US into the war. The Japanese gave it to him.
FDR wanted that war(s). US was slipping back into a depression, not any positive news domestically. There's a reason FDR authorized warships as escorts for the Lend/Lease traffic in the Atlantic - he wanted a big enough event to justify entering the European theater. Japan just provided it in the Pacific instead.
The Japanese, just like the Russians of today, had a third choice available to them - stop the war and go home. No doubt this would have displeased the führer, but sometimes you have to break a few eggs.
That may be making it the Milli Vanilli of news stories.
Hilarious
“It’s everywhere “?? Were they people familiar with the matter? I’m broadly on your side of this issue, but trumps “you don’t have any cards” drivel directed at zelensky isn’t really aging well. Every alt media genius has asserted the imminent demise of Ukraine since the beginning. It’s starting to feel like Afghanistan for everyone involved.
True, shows “limited” war is just as stupid as unlimited war. Too bad we can’t put people like Lindsey Graham or Victoria Nuland on the front, to enjoy what they create.
Hear me out. I think if blewmenthaul and Lindsey graham can be executed together it would have a chilling effect on being a warmonger. And it’s bipartisan so it can’t be deemed political retribution. Have a trial first. And give them leniency if they testify against their co conspirators. Then revoke the leniency. Like the Minsk agreements.
Hate to say it, but give them a fair trial and then hang them.
this is the nuclear triad. we have armed and trained and help run this war. we are directly in it. If we thought Russia was complicit in striking our own nuclear bombers -- sitting in the open so the START signatories can count them -- what would we do? This is the discussion. The war was provoked deliberately by NATO. It has been a thin deceit of a war from the start. So if you are okay with risking a strike on the US -- a nuclear strike and on OUR nuclear arsenal -- keep pointing out what are now irrelevancies -- that "Ukraine and Russia" are at war. That is like calling the war against Serbia an "air campaign." It was always NATO v Russia. And NATO is losing.
Our elites act like we're stupid, and they also operate as if the Russians are stupid.
Their pet journalists frame everything as being the brilliance of the clever and brave Ukrainians, while the war has been run from a base in Germany by NATO officers since day 1.
The Russians view NATO nations as hostile actors, because we are.
Really doesn't help when ghouls like Lindsey Graham go on television to talk about what a great deal this war is for America because we get to kill so many Russians and all we have to do is expend Ukrainians. It couldn't have been any clearer that they don't care how many Ukrainians die as long as they're able to keep killing Russians.
And profiting off weapons manufacturing.
What kind of mentality accepts the proposition that Russia is entitled to reduce neighboring states and unwilling peoples to the status of puppet states and imperial subjects? Rooting for Mongoloid Russian tyranny against Ukraine and against America and civilized Europe is a spectacular form of treason.
What an asinine comment. I suspect you are a raving Zionist supremacist. Your anti-Russian animus gives you away as does the stupidity of your comment.
I’m desperately rooting against nuclear war. Ukraine is not in our national interest.
Do you really see this as a freshman political science event? It is literally impossible to cast what's happening as big bad guy vs good little guy. No political scientist or intellectual ever has made this look reasonable for any length of time to serious people, because life is not simple. NATO provocations have to be placed next to Putin's strong man Presidency. The idea rightly or wrongly that he's the devil carries no weight except with intellectually stunted politicians. How is he viewed in Russia? I'll bet you one hundred trillion $ that his polling numbers look fantastic in Russia. I'll bet that matters nearly infinitely more than what you or I or any other Ukraine loving, Russia hating person thinks in America or the EU or UK. Who wants us to load up nukes and head to Poland to put Russia in its place? Idiots want that.
Incidentally I know a family who moved thirty years ago to my neighborhood from Kiev who hate Zelensky's guts. They firmly believe that there are large Nazi elements within the Army and in the highest levels of government. They see themselves as Russian and would vastly prefer to have Yanukovych back and for America to f' off.
Simplifying this war into merely good and bad requires nothing of people who've never had their family's lives put on the line in support of that war. Sometimes war means being pragmatic... like joining a murderous regime - Stalin - in the effort to snuff out the global aspirations of an equally murderous different regime - Hitler.
Dude, you need to disconnect your CNN I.V. feed.
Agreed!
The comparison is apt in the sense that both the Ukraine and Japanese attacks were tactical victories and strategic defeats.
The Ukraine attack is meaningless because Ukraine is getting throttled, they're out of men, Poland just voted for a nationalist and in a war of attrition there's only one outcome.
Matt and Walter are right to mock the maniacs, but fortunately democracy rode to the rescue in 2024, not that these pricks aren't capable of every sort of madness. My guess is that a sanguine, business as usual, focus on America response will kill this story.
Fact is Trump and most of America couldn't care less what happens in Ukraine, case folks haven't noticed, and that's all that really counts.
I think I’ll prepare myself for what may come by watching “Dr. Strangelove” today.
Lindsay Graham wants to go out in a blaze of glory like Slim Pickens.
or Jeffrey Epstein.............
Oh, yeah?
1979-1989 the Soviet Union lost Total: 658,402–669,949 casualties – 14,453–26,000 dead. The Soviet Union withdrew in defeat and its government collapsed in 1991.
2022-2025 invasion of Ukraine Russia lost Total: 800,000 to 1,000,000+ casualties --200,000 to 250,000 dead.
Who's losing?
NATO and the West.
Try citing some accurate stats, moron.
NATO (Europe) has shown their abject miscreant behavior for centuries. Why we trust them is beyond me. Why should we support them financially and militarily any longer? We should NOT let them bring us down with them. They can no longer be saved, and do not deserve to be. We've saved their sorry ass enough.
Repeating the stats promoted by the Ukrainian government marks you as a fool.
If the Ukrainians are getting the 20 to 1 kill ratio they're claiming, then how come their infantry units are critically understaffed? How come they have the same number of mechanized brigades in 2025 as they had when the war began in 2022?
But most of all, how come Russian infantry are seizing fortifications but Ukrainian infantry are failing to return the favor?
Because that is how invasions go. The invaders always lose more, many more, but if they have lots more to begin with, and can replenish which is the case with Russia, then they can continue the invasion. Your arguments are mush.
But Brawndo's got what plants crave.
many military strategists would call a full trade embargo on oil, freezing japanese assets held by us banks, etc as an act of war. at the time something approaching 80% of japanese oil came from the usa. all of this occurred prior to Dec 7.
not to mention the usa arming japan's adversaries (china), the flying tigers - usa mercenaries "volunteers" who flew combat missions against japan in china.
it is a bit of a whitewashing of history to say the usa was attacked unprovoked - kinda like this conflict btw UKE & RUS.
Scott Horton has a great book - Provoked about the aftermath of the cold war and lead up to this conflict.
Of course - but why were the restrictions on oil and such implemented? What was Japan doing to bring that about?
I'm sure you can remember.
their total war against china + their alliance w/ axis powers.
this is my exact point - both the usa & japan had chosen sides in the conflict prior to engaging in direct hostilities. it is a bit juvenile & ignorant of history to call japan's attack unprovoked.
War was not declared, and even the Japanese knew they had screwed up. Yamamoto's comments notwithstanding (which are widely debated about whether he ever said that) the countries were deep into negotiations to try and avoid further conflict. The Japanese were totally disingenuous during these discussions, and used them as a ruse while they moved their fleet in for the strike. The idea was to declare war right before the attack. Their own incompetence resulted in the attack coming before the declaration of war.
Obviously history has judged that the carriers being out of port seemed convenient, but the attack was a sneak attack by every definition of the day. It enraged the USA, and the ferocity directed towards Japan always seemed a bit more as a result. In the annals of war, provoked would be a stretch, because by that definition no war is unprovoked.
In foreign policy and geopolitics subterfuge should be forever anticipated as a rule.
As a freedom loving American, the concept of a declaration of war is more of an internally focused message for the citizenry than some phony honor bound proclamation to the world or an adversary.
I didn't say a victim -- although there were civilian victims, the same kind we piss and moan about when they are our friends of the moment -- I never called this attack "Pearl Harbor" in any comment -- what it was was an act in which certain NATO countries bear culpability along with the Ukrainians and as it was an inadmissable attack on the sacred "nuclear triad" -- all bets are off. And if I were DJT, I'd call Zelensky, say "fuck you and the horse you rode in on," call Putin and say, "do it and get it over with," then stop all aid and let Russia do exactly what we would do. And if we condemn Russia -- we condemn what we will eventually be doing here -- fending off armed enemies from at least the south.
👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾
With the air raid sirens blaring, warning of incoming ICBMs, I see Maddow and Wallace clinking champagne flutes and saying "Take that, Orange Man. We won! "
This is exactly the logical end of their TDS nonsense.
You and Walter are beacon in a sea of muck For what it's worth, the folks I respect believe Putin and Trump aren't about to let the piss-ants fuck this up for all of us.
That's what 2024 and being on the right side of history is all about. Keep up the great work!
If I were a Democrat, I’d say, “Why do you love Putin so much, Fascist??”
Plenty of self-described "conservatives" would call me a Putin appeaser. Like I give an f...
If Trump looks bad it must be good says the loyal press. They are like a bunch of high school girls bullying the smart gifted girl who is so ahead of them all. I never like Trump that much but I am impressed with his out of the box approach.
thank you for saying it all out in the open. Lindsay Graham should be on trial for treason. I absolutely reject his pro-war stances and his duplicity vis a vis Trump. DJT -- dump the bastard from your list of WH invitees. He probably calls to report to Zelensky anything you say. What the hell is wrong with the world -- why are not the streets filled with the young to protest this drive to hell?
Thank you Matt. Trump has to demonstrate that he is the adult in the room. He should give an address to the nation. He should say that effective immediately we are severing all intelligence sharing with Ukraine. We will not be dragged into this war. I have tried to facilitate peace, but Zelensky has escalated to disrupt these efforts at every opportunity. The United States cannot be manipulated into war.
Good idea, Carl, but the obstacles are Trump's handlers, many in his cabinet and in the senate like Graham.. They want this war. I can't say if Trump is being manipulated into continuing this war, but that is what's happening and his rhetoric towards Putin and Russia belie his desire for peace. So, what's holding him back?
Taibbi nails the insanity of a media and political class so obsessed with dunking on Trump they’re cheering a drone strike that’s pushed us closer to nuclear brinkmanship. The gleeful “Peace Averted!” narrative ignores the real danger to Americans while exposing a deranged elite that prioritizes political point-scoring over survival. Dan Caldwell’s call to cut support for such escalations is the only sane path forward. We need to ditch these lunatics before they drag us into oblivion. Madness.
Good and timely article Matt; you are right on all points. Sadly, while Trump managed to win the electoral college, as well as the popular vote, the deep security, intelligence and administrative state is still well ensconced, with full backing of the democrat party establishment, and a good chunk of the Republican Party RINO neocon wargasm establishment, particularly Lindsey Graham and his fellow crazy dickhead cabal of warmongering republicans in the senate. These people don’t care at all about us and our loved ones as they keep pushing things to the brink.
I don’t understand this bloodlust. Treating this with all the fanboy excitement of a WWE match is madness.
Propaganda. This always precedes a government starting a war. Remember “Freedom fries” with Iraq, when France balked at a stupid invasion?
An unfortunate number of Americans have been itching for us to support a "Good and Just" war, since there hasn't been one since Korea.
So they've been sold a pile of horseshit about Ukraine and they're eagerly gobbling it up because it's exactly what they were asking for.