Great commentary. But the diaries are not private. He wrote them on government computers. I worked in the California legislature but 13 years and had to take ethics training. Anything I did on the state computers was property of the state. I’m sure that’s the same in the federal government. And I do
Not feel sorry for him. He helped vilify and censor scientists who questioned the origins and protocols in early 2020 KNOWING that they were right.
If his diary is his personal papers then he is looking at at espionage act prosecution. Fauci can't hand wave away storing classified information in his personal papers by saying "Dear Diary". The only way he avoids an espionage act prosecution is if his diary was prepared and written as an employee of the US government.
This is outside of my sphere of knowledge, but I do know that my son, who has a high security clearance for his job, has a lot of very specific rules and procedures he has to follow, particularly with what he sends via email. He had to get his resume de-classified before he was allowed to send it to someone.
"he is looking at at espionage act prosecution"?????
I can't stand cockroach Fauci. But there is no "espionage issue here. Honestly, among stupid takes, this is pretty near top! This shit was nongovernment servers.
Have you even glanced at the diary at all? Or the espionage act for that matter?
Where is you evidence for this statement:
"This shit was nongovernment servers"
I would hate to think you just made that up. Pulled straight out of your ass
The words, actions and decisions of the president as he interacts with his employees in private are inherently classified. Duh. That alone is enough. When you work for the government on classified matters, you don't just get to run your mouth without consequence or take home classified information.
And despite the lies of Senator Stevens, there is redacted information in his diary.
All of this is academic anyways. There is zero evidence that Fauci ever tried to make a legal claim that his diary is is own personal papers. That's legal suicide that his lawyers would never allow because there is no benefit. The constitutional oversight power of congress is not going to yield to a claim of personal papers anyway.
This whole narrative is just more lying to "no information" voters.
Poor Fauci had his private notes about how much he loves his grandchildren exposed in a personal vendetta.
Well that was utterly stupid babble. Discussions between and among members of the executive branch are not inherently classified. Did you graduate from Sixth grade? His writings were on government servers is at the whims of the Executive. He doesn't own it. The government does.
It also shows how uncareful he is as, not just a public servant, but a human being. He’s not careful with anything. He helped fund the lab that created this thing. I worked the ICUs during Covid. It was a nightmare. I never could have imagined anything as bad as the first wave.
And that, ultimately, is why I don't understand how this became such a partisan issue. I have friends left of center who still believe he's a hero. I point out Fauci funded GoF, he supported GoF (for years before COVID), and then he LIED about funding it and LIED about the virus accidentally escaping from a lab, publicly calling it a conspiracy theory when he knew it was the most likely scenario. Anytime I push back to some of my friends (those who didn't already unfriendly me because I opposed school closures), accuse me of being MAGA, as if just because I'm right of center I must agree with "all those nuts" and therefore nothing I say needs to be listened to because "clearly" I just watch Fox News (which I don't -- I don't watch any news, I only read the news.) Someone just yesterday basically said that it's a witch-hunt and they don't believe the diaries because RFK Jr released them so he probably made them all up. smh.
The NYT reporter who wrote pulled it down from X and the out of the digital paper after she was community noted on X. The NYT digital costs 22.00 per month and I pay it so that I stay in their bubbles and see for myself if that makes sense.
Yes, I used to subscribe to a bunch of newspapers, but it just got to be too much and I didn't have time to read everything anyway. I still think that I'm better informed and read more widely than most of my liberal friends.
I find Rand Paul much more credible on this issue than Fauci, whose public statements don't agree with his Dear Diary entries. Fauci is all about Fauci, and he has been engaged in a multi-year effort to cover his ass. He belongs in prison.
That’s because you haven’t done a deep dive on Covid and those poison shots. He is guilty of pushing to develop a virus that would be more easily transmissible to humans, and for creating a poison shot that was neither safe, nor effective. His actions helped destroy small businesses, permanently interfere with the education of millions of students, and cause the deaths and injuries of many of those who were forced to take those shots.
I agree that Trump is also guilty. He is STILL bragging about Warp speed. Most of the worst effects of all this Covid stuff took place under Biden, but Trump is also at fault.
When non-scientists do “deep dives” on topics they are not qualified to comment on, they are more likely to break their necks on the bottom of the swimming pool than find the “truth”.
I did a quick Google search on Rand Paul’s “smoking gun” cleavage sites. Here is one of the first things I found:
What does this prove? Nothing. I can barely read it. But I DO know that the Lancet is a respected medical journal, and if they say that the “smoking gun” is in doubt, I find that at least as credible as Rand Paul, who I already know is half a kook, saying the opposite.
But you have doubled-up your conspiracy! Not only did Anthony Fauci create the disease that circled the earth and brought economies to their knees, but he also created a poisonous antidote and duped the whole world into taking it? Where do the UFO’s fit into all this?
Who is Fauci to you… Ernst Blofeld? Thanos? Lex Luthor? The contortions and exertions you have to go through to blame Anthony Fauci of all people for COVID—not Trump, not Xi, not the scientists in the lab that you will never know with any certainty the virus came from or the janitor who left the door open—is extraordinary and crankish.
Why don’t you pay more attention to the war of choice that just started a few months ago which will soon have us wishing for the good ol’ days of COVID? You have some actual control over how that turns out.
I am already angry at Trump and his latest stupid war, but the deep dives on Covid that I conducted on the Inter Webs led me to a great deal of info posted by doctors. If you choose to dismiss all the brouhaha over Covid and the poison shots as mere uninformed partisan sniping, then there is nothing I can do for you.
I would think that you might exhibit some curiosity over the totally redacted docs related to Covid that were released to Senator Johnson a few years back, though. What was the CDC trying to hide? Do you genuinely believe that all the people complaining of vaccine injury from the poison shots were lying? Check out the steep rise in miscarriages and stillbirths, after the “totally safe” shots were pushed on pregnant moms. Take a look at all the young athletes keeling over on the playing field, from myocarditis. Read up on the accounts posted by embalmers in multiple states, remarking on the thick fibrous stuff they were finding in the veins of corpses. Research the number of people who died immediately after receiving a shot.
We were lied to, experimented on, injured, and in some cases witnesses to the deaths of family members who got those shots. We need accountability.
I agree with Matt but the media created the moment and partly censored dissent because they didn’t interview dissenting scientists. The media also completely dismissed the lab leak partly because Fauci said it wasn’t true.
Well in fairness to the NYT, it was a “racist conspiracy theory.” The media absolutely disgraced itself during Covid, and journalists haven’t bothered to correct most of the lies they told. By the way, where is their reporting on Covid vaccine injury? How about interviewing some of the people who sustained lasting injuries or lost kids to these shots? Too busy talking about the reflecting pool I guess. Countless studies have come out all over the world, including from locals such as the Cleveland Clinic. Virtually no curiosity or coverage from the press. What obedient geishas they are!
The lack of interest from the legacy press is truly disturbing. You'd think after they were embarrassed with Biden's cognitive issues they would be more attentive and self-reflective and maybe actually report two sides of an issue ...
I started out the pandemic as a lifelong Democrat and New York Times subscriber. Now I view myself as an independent. I have to say on this issue, Republicans have been far more willing to seek answers. Democrats have abandoned the public interest. The legacy press is shockingly, deliberately obtuse.
I've always been right-of-center, but I also grew up in Northern California, I'm Gen-X (we tend to question authority!) and I have friends of all political stripes. Never, until COVID, have I had friends leave/unfriend me because of something I said or questioned. Not just on-line acquaintances, but people I actually know and used to socialize with. It's very depressing. And the press has been hugely disappointing.
I really can relate because I experienced the same thing in New York, being kicked out of my book group after over a decade together. A disturbing and bizarre experience. Like you, this has never happened before Covid, nothing even remotely like it ever has. I am still not sure what to make of it or why this situation was so different and divisive.
He can still be compelled to testify. This was already litigated during Iran-Contra with Oliver North. They will give him immunity for his testimony and that nullifies his 5th amendment assertion.
He then can't be prosecuted for information he provides in testimony and it will contaminate prosecuting him using other information. But he can still be prosecuted for lying under oath.
To me, this a no-brainer trade to make. I would much rather have his testimony than his prosecution. And his testimony will still put a bunch of other people in prison.
I'm not sure if this is touched on past the one hour mark. I tapped out when you guys said the diary is unredacted.
Even a light scan of the diary over a drink shows that the diary is redacted in places. It's obviously not unredacted.
It's not a no brainer, he brought a criminal attorney with him. This is all about the investigation and prosecution of David M. Morens. The questions posed to Fauci are relevant to that crime. The only crime outside of the blanket pardon that Fauci can be charged with is an obstruction charge for that case that was initiated well after the pardon.
I don’t believe anything nullifies the Fifth. A person with “immunity” could always say something that sets him up for trouble over something for which he does not have immunity. Hense the right to not be forced to be a witness against yourself.
But boy oh boy, is this ever a futile fishing expedition. So Fauci’s CDC helped fund a lab in Wuhan, and badda boom badda bing COVID! This is all that Rand Paul seems to be saying. (Christ, why do we allow Kentucky to have ANY senators?)
But that is exactly the kind of immunity that they would be imposing upon Fauci.
Read about the Oliver North case, it's very interesting. After his compelled testimony, the government tried to prosecute him claiming that the prosecutors were placed into a 'clean room' and never heard his testimony and that the evidence being used was evidence collected before he testified, and the courts were having none of that bs. And rightly so. The courts said this was still fruit from the poisonous tree because the only way to overcome the 5th amendment was with real immunity. No take backs, no 'clean room' bs, no games.
And as far as I'm concerned that's axiomatically true. If you can prosecute him, then his 5th amendment rights were violated.
It's interesting too, because this kind of immunity is like you own personal pardon power. The witness has every incentive to confess to every sin they have ever done. Fauci is going to be out there confessing that he ate all the cookies and lied to his mom when he was seven.
And hell, that's what I want.
But if Paul can get a contempt vote on Fauci, then I think he might testify without immunity because there is a very colorable legal argument that because congress had to give something up to force his testimony through immunity that he is still in contempt and will be until he testifies voluntarily.
There is so little caselaw on this that I think if he is going to be forced to testify anyway that might not be a risk he is willing to take.
But if I had to bet money, they will force immunity upon him and make him testify because it's the simplest way to get there and it works.
They are not going to grant immunity to him obstructing an active prosecution for a series of crimes he likely initiated but did not actively participate in.
I listened to all of the hearing that I could stand. I am still left with the impression that there is nothing Fauci could say that would confirm or refute a lab leak theory. Unless you have Chinese internal memos, what on earth could possibly put this issue to rest?
Conspiracies can never be disproven, and if there were credible reason to believe that the virus was engineered, we'd have it by now. (And what the hell does an average person know about "cleavage sites"? This is all a waste of time and a pretty obvious distraction.)
Like what exactly? I listened to Paul and all he ever seems to say is that Fauci is somehow guilty for COVID because the CDC funded some research that according to his tinfoil hat conspiracy led directly to the pandemic.
Let's just deal with this entry from Fauci's diary. I posted this in another thread.
------
Senator Marco Rubio is acting like a real asshole. He is publicly calling me a liar about my statement in the NY Times about my assessments for the percent vaccinations needed for herd immunity. I had said that I modified my assessment of 70 to 75% to be 70 to 85% because we really did not know the precise number and I wanted to encourage people to get vaccinated to achieve herd immunity. Actually, I made that change by extrapolating the measles situation where measles vaccine is 98% effective whereas SARS-CoV-2 is 94-95% effective. Measles begins to lose herd immunity at around 89-90% of population vaccinated and so I brought up the SARS-CoV-2 to 85% with the range being 70 to 85%. For that he called me a “liar” Big hypocrite as he continues to kiss Trump’s ass – the world’s biggest liar.
------
I want to start with the statement about Trump. Calling him the world's biggest liar. Believing every Chinese government official over the President of the United States is certainly a choice. I think he should have resigned over those words alone. If he believes that to be true and he wants to stay then he needs to make that public. I don't want some insane reddit poster embedding themselves in government in order to oust the president from within and using a pandemic to do it. Just the appearance of conflict of interest here is brutal condemnation of Fauci considering the position of trust he held.
Fauci said, "I had said that I modified my assessment of 70 to 75% to be 70 to 85% because we really did not know the precise number and I wanted to encourage people to get vaccinated to achieve herd immunity."
Here Fauci is confessing that science has nothing to do with these numbers. He just wants people to do what he says the science be damned. Just his sense about what is best for the country justified by the greater good. Even Fauci realized that probably wasn't a great argument, so he came up with an even worse one.
"Actually, I made that change by extrapolating the measles situation where measles vaccine is 98% effective whereas SARS-CoV-2 is 94-95% effective. Measles begins to lose herd immunity at around 89-90% of population vaccinated and so I brought up the SARS-CoV-2 to 85% with the range being 70 to 85%."
There is so much wrong here on so many levels it's almost hard to know where to begin. Suffice to say that if covid was the same as the measles then we could have just used the measles vaccine.
«He can still be compelled to testify. This was already litigated during Iran-Contra with Oliver North. They will give him immunity for his testimony and that nullifies his 5th amendment assertion.»
Actually he has been pardoned in advance of any prosecution by Biden for anything and everything he might have done so he cannot take the 5th.
The pardon is time limited from January 1, 2014 to the date of the pardon on January, 19th 2025, and Fauci can easily argue that he can be prosecuted for anything he did relating to this after that date.
To me that is an argument that will easily be upheld by the courts, and it should be.
I briefly saw an item that Paul is pursuing contempt charges against Fauci and they can lock him up for contempt and then force him to testify with immunity. We might very well get a twofer out of this, with Fauci in prison and forced to testify.
«Fauci can easily argue that he can be prosecuted for anything he did relating to this after that date.»
That most likely depends on how the questions are worded. Congressional committee have very clever lawyers who can write precisely worded question if the committee really wants to dig into the matter.
There is zero reason to hang any of this on a novel one off supreme court decision when congress has very strong power to get what they want using techniques that have a long history of court sanction and approval. The constitutional role of congressional oversight is really bad ass.
If the goal is to fuck all this up, then I would strongly recommend that we pursue an irrelevant argument about the president's power of the pardon.
Something of this magnitude of potential harm requires assuming the worst possible motives by those pushing for the research especially in light of the cover up and misdirection efforts by Fauci. We don’t know his true motives and don’t need to in order to see a crime has been committed. The risks were too great and millions died directly as a result. Was he asked to develop a bio weapon by some agency of some government? Probably, given his blanket pardon that makes sense so he won’t answer any question. This was a predicted outcome and possibly a desired outcome to further test the product.
Fauci is not, and never will be, a victim. For what he wrought on us, for generations . . .? Too effin bad there might be a hearing.
We had a 9/11 Commission. We need a Covid Commission. Except like the 9/11 turned out, it would be filled with people to CYA the guilty/incompetent/negligent.
We definitely need a Covid Commission. Senator Ron Johnson had a hearing a few years back, in which he flourished a sheaf of documents he’d requested from the CDC. Every page was just a line of blacked-out text. The info had been completely redacted.
If the root cause is the arrogance and hubris of someone holding a high degree of authority for decades, then it's guaranteed to repeat at some point.
For me, the bigger danger is the politicization and ideological use of agencies like NIAD, and CDC who are supposed to be actually following the science. Walensky (possibly at the direction of someone inside the Biden Administration?) in particular made the choice to trade truth for compliance, and in the process degraded the future credibility of the CDC. When the next pandemic (which might actually be a severe one as opposed to a novel strain of the common cold) happens, half the country will be questioning the directives coming from Atlanta from day one.
You are right. The trust in public health is at an all-time low because they lied. If we can't trust them to speak the truth, the good and the bad, then we are doomed. I'm one of them. I don't believe most of what I hear coming from government (no matter who says it) until I dig in.
NPR coverage seems more of the same denial with sprinkling of tds it was trump’s idea to shut the country down. Fauci gets sanctified despite overwhelming evidence of fabrication and misdirection. The question is the gof ongoing, and was the pandemic a deliberate test? Why believe any Fauci narrative since he refuses to answer fundamental questions and is defended by NPR and Democrat Party politicians eager to mislead voters?
Senator Gary Peters is completely disingenuous - it’s pathetic. Really appreciate Matt Taibbi doing this. Also enjoy Dr Matt Bivens perspective, continue to solicit his views Matt. Dr Fauchi is not a scapegoat IMHO, he needs to be held to account, or at least be required to tell the unvarnished story. As Matt Bivens points out, vaccines have had their tremendous value diminished unfortunately as the House of Medicine gets politicized by all sides.
I don’t understand what Matt Bivens doesn’t understand. Why is it “like a movie” that the “face of COVID might be the creator of COVID?” Why isn’t it obvious to him that Fauci was all about himself, his career, and any potential to create something and become famous. The diary is Exhibit 1 of this and therefore relevant.
Every time Fauci invokes his Fifth Amendment right to not answer, it's curious that (most probably under the advice of his attorney) at the same time Fauci doesn't say that he declines to answer under his Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination.
This would have been more interesting if Fauci tried sounding like a wise guy every time he invoked the fifth. After all, he is an Italian guy from Brooklyn. Back when the pandemic first started, P.J. O'Rourke wrote that he felt compelled to wear a mask when Fauci recommended it because he was afraid of waking up one morning with a severed horse's head in his bed.
Great commentary. But the diaries are not private. He wrote them on government computers. I worked in the California legislature but 13 years and had to take ethics training. Anything I did on the state computers was property of the state. I’m sure that’s the same in the federal government. And I do
Not feel sorry for him. He helped vilify and censor scientists who questioned the origins and protocols in early 2020 KNOWING that they were right.
If his diary is his personal papers then he is looking at at espionage act prosecution. Fauci can't hand wave away storing classified information in his personal papers by saying "Dear Diary". The only way he avoids an espionage act prosecution is if his diary was prepared and written as an employee of the US government.
This is outside of my sphere of knowledge, but I do know that my son, who has a high security clearance for his job, has a lot of very specific rules and procedures he has to follow, particularly with what he sends via email. He had to get his resume de-classified before he was allowed to send it to someone.
"he is looking at at espionage act prosecution"?????
I can't stand cockroach Fauci. But there is no "espionage issue here. Honestly, among stupid takes, this is pretty near top! This shit was nongovernment servers.
And to be clear, calling another person a cockroach doesn't give you credibility at all.
Quite the opposite.
If the shoe fits, wear it cockroach.
Have you even glanced at the diary at all? Or the espionage act for that matter?
Where is you evidence for this statement:
"This shit was nongovernment servers"
I would hate to think you just made that up. Pulled straight out of your ass
The words, actions and decisions of the president as he interacts with his employees in private are inherently classified. Duh. That alone is enough. When you work for the government on classified matters, you don't just get to run your mouth without consequence or take home classified information.
And despite the lies of Senator Stevens, there is redacted information in his diary.
All of this is academic anyways. There is zero evidence that Fauci ever tried to make a legal claim that his diary is is own personal papers. That's legal suicide that his lawyers would never allow because there is no benefit. The constitutional oversight power of congress is not going to yield to a claim of personal papers anyway.
This whole narrative is just more lying to "no information" voters.
Poor Fauci had his private notes about how much he loves his grandchildren exposed in a personal vendetta.
Give me break.
Well that was utterly stupid babble. Discussions between and among members of the executive branch are not inherently classified. Did you graduate from Sixth grade? His writings were on government servers is at the whims of the Executive. He doesn't own it. The government does.
It also shows how uncareful he is as, not just a public servant, but a human being. He’s not careful with anything. He helped fund the lab that created this thing. I worked the ICUs during Covid. It was a nightmare. I never could have imagined anything as bad as the first wave.
And that, ultimately, is why I don't understand how this became such a partisan issue. I have friends left of center who still believe he's a hero. I point out Fauci funded GoF, he supported GoF (for years before COVID), and then he LIED about funding it and LIED about the virus accidentally escaping from a lab, publicly calling it a conspiracy theory when he knew it was the most likely scenario. Anytime I push back to some of my friends (those who didn't already unfriendly me because I opposed school closures), accuse me of being MAGA, as if just because I'm right of center I must agree with "all those nuts" and therefore nothing I say needs to be listened to because "clearly" I just watch Fox News (which I don't -- I don't watch any news, I only read the news.) Someone just yesterday basically said that it's a witch-hunt and they don't believe the diaries because RFK Jr released them so he probably made them all up. smh.
That’s interesting thank you.
The NYT reporter who wrote pulled it down from X and the out of the digital paper after she was community noted on X. The NYT digital costs 22.00 per month and I pay it so that I stay in their bubbles and see for myself if that makes sense.
Yes, I used to subscribe to a bunch of newspapers, but it just got to be too much and I didn't have time to read everything anyway. I still think that I'm better informed and read more widely than most of my liberal friends.
I wonder how all those people who bought Fauci prayer candles feel watching this.
I feel bad for Rand Paul, pretending he understands what a “cleavage site” is. Wasn’t this guy previously employed by Lenscrafters?
Previously he was an obgyn
I find Rand Paul much more credible on this issue than Fauci, whose public statements don't agree with his Dear Diary entries. Fauci is all about Fauci, and he has been engaged in a multi-year effort to cover his ass. He belongs in prison.
Prison for what? I still have absolutely no idea what he is supposedly guilty of, and why his boss Donald Trump isn’t the real responsible party.
That’s because you haven’t done a deep dive on Covid and those poison shots. He is guilty of pushing to develop a virus that would be more easily transmissible to humans, and for creating a poison shot that was neither safe, nor effective. His actions helped destroy small businesses, permanently interfere with the education of millions of students, and cause the deaths and injuries of many of those who were forced to take those shots.
I agree that Trump is also guilty. He is STILL bragging about Warp speed. Most of the worst effects of all this Covid stuff took place under Biden, but Trump is also at fault.
When non-scientists do “deep dives” on topics they are not qualified to comment on, they are more likely to break their necks on the bottom of the swimming pool than find the “truth”.
I did a quick Google search on Rand Paul’s “smoking gun” cleavage sites. Here is one of the first things I found:
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanmic/article/PIIS2666-5247(23)00144-1/fulltext
What does this prove? Nothing. I can barely read it. But I DO know that the Lancet is a respected medical journal, and if they say that the “smoking gun” is in doubt, I find that at least as credible as Rand Paul, who I already know is half a kook, saying the opposite.
But you have doubled-up your conspiracy! Not only did Anthony Fauci create the disease that circled the earth and brought economies to their knees, but he also created a poisonous antidote and duped the whole world into taking it? Where do the UFO’s fit into all this?
Who is Fauci to you… Ernst Blofeld? Thanos? Lex Luthor? The contortions and exertions you have to go through to blame Anthony Fauci of all people for COVID—not Trump, not Xi, not the scientists in the lab that you will never know with any certainty the virus came from or the janitor who left the door open—is extraordinary and crankish.
Why don’t you pay more attention to the war of choice that just started a few months ago which will soon have us wishing for the good ol’ days of COVID? You have some actual control over how that turns out.
I am already angry at Trump and his latest stupid war, but the deep dives on Covid that I conducted on the Inter Webs led me to a great deal of info posted by doctors. If you choose to dismiss all the brouhaha over Covid and the poison shots as mere uninformed partisan sniping, then there is nothing I can do for you.
I would think that you might exhibit some curiosity over the totally redacted docs related to Covid that were released to Senator Johnson a few years back, though. What was the CDC trying to hide? Do you genuinely believe that all the people complaining of vaccine injury from the poison shots were lying? Check out the steep rise in miscarriages and stillbirths, after the “totally safe” shots were pushed on pregnant moms. Take a look at all the young athletes keeling over on the playing field, from myocarditis. Read up on the accounts posted by embalmers in multiple states, remarking on the thick fibrous stuff they were finding in the veins of corpses. Research the number of people who died immediately after receiving a shot.
We were lied to, experimented on, injured, and in some cases witnesses to the deaths of family members who got those shots. We need accountability.
I agree with Matt but the media created the moment and partly censored dissent because they didn’t interview dissenting scientists. The media also completely dismissed the lab leak partly because Fauci said it wasn’t true.
Well in fairness to the NYT, it was a “racist conspiracy theory.” The media absolutely disgraced itself during Covid, and journalists haven’t bothered to correct most of the lies they told. By the way, where is their reporting on Covid vaccine injury? How about interviewing some of the people who sustained lasting injuries or lost kids to these shots? Too busy talking about the reflecting pool I guess. Countless studies have come out all over the world, including from locals such as the Cleveland Clinic. Virtually no curiosity or coverage from the press. What obedient geishas they are!
The lack of interest from the legacy press is truly disturbing. You'd think after they were embarrassed with Biden's cognitive issues they would be more attentive and self-reflective and maybe actually report two sides of an issue ...
I started out the pandemic as a lifelong Democrat and New York Times subscriber. Now I view myself as an independent. I have to say on this issue, Republicans have been far more willing to seek answers. Democrats have abandoned the public interest. The legacy press is shockingly, deliberately obtuse.
I've always been right-of-center, but I also grew up in Northern California, I'm Gen-X (we tend to question authority!) and I have friends of all political stripes. Never, until COVID, have I had friends leave/unfriend me because of something I said or questioned. Not just on-line acquaintances, but people I actually know and used to socialize with. It's very depressing. And the press has been hugely disappointing.
I really can relate because I experienced the same thing in New York, being kicked out of my book group after over a decade together. A disturbing and bizarre experience. Like you, this has never happened before Covid, nothing even remotely like it ever has. I am still not sure what to make of it or why this situation was so different and divisive.
I'm so sorry that happened to you.
I’m really impressed at Rand Paul’s tenacity on this issue.
He can still be compelled to testify. This was already litigated during Iran-Contra with Oliver North. They will give him immunity for his testimony and that nullifies his 5th amendment assertion.
He then can't be prosecuted for information he provides in testimony and it will contaminate prosecuting him using other information. But he can still be prosecuted for lying under oath.
To me, this a no-brainer trade to make. I would much rather have his testimony than his prosecution. And his testimony will still put a bunch of other people in prison.
I'm not sure if this is touched on past the one hour mark. I tapped out when you guys said the diary is unredacted.
Even a light scan of the diary over a drink shows that the diary is redacted in places. It's obviously not unredacted.
It's not a no brainer, he brought a criminal attorney with him. This is all about the investigation and prosecution of David M. Morens. The questions posed to Fauci are relevant to that crime. The only crime outside of the blanket pardon that Fauci can be charged with is an obstruction charge for that case that was initiated well after the pardon.
Very interesting.
Here is background on David Morens.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/doj-indicts-former-fauci-advisor-david-morens-on-charges-related-to-covid-pandemic/
Here is the indictment.
https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.mdd.603873/gov.uscourts.mdd.603873.1.0_1.pdf
If you get a chance I would love to hear you explore your thoughts on this.
And I have reading to do.
I don’t believe anything nullifies the Fifth. A person with “immunity” could always say something that sets him up for trouble over something for which he does not have immunity. Hense the right to not be forced to be a witness against yourself.
But boy oh boy, is this ever a futile fishing expedition. So Fauci’s CDC helped fund a lab in Wuhan, and badda boom badda bing COVID! This is all that Rand Paul seems to be saying. (Christ, why do we allow Kentucky to have ANY senators?)
But that is exactly the kind of immunity that they would be imposing upon Fauci.
Read about the Oliver North case, it's very interesting. After his compelled testimony, the government tried to prosecute him claiming that the prosecutors were placed into a 'clean room' and never heard his testimony and that the evidence being used was evidence collected before he testified, and the courts were having none of that bs. And rightly so. The courts said this was still fruit from the poisonous tree because the only way to overcome the 5th amendment was with real immunity. No take backs, no 'clean room' bs, no games.
And as far as I'm concerned that's axiomatically true. If you can prosecute him, then his 5th amendment rights were violated.
It's interesting too, because this kind of immunity is like you own personal pardon power. The witness has every incentive to confess to every sin they have ever done. Fauci is going to be out there confessing that he ate all the cookies and lied to his mom when he was seven.
And hell, that's what I want.
But if Paul can get a contempt vote on Fauci, then I think he might testify without immunity because there is a very colorable legal argument that because congress had to give something up to force his testimony through immunity that he is still in contempt and will be until he testifies voluntarily.
There is so little caselaw on this that I think if he is going to be forced to testify anyway that might not be a risk he is willing to take.
But if I had to bet money, they will force immunity upon him and make him testify because it's the simplest way to get there and it works.
They are not going to grant immunity to him obstructing an active prosecution for a series of crimes he likely initiated but did not actively participate in.
I listened to all of the hearing that I could stand. I am still left with the impression that there is nothing Fauci could say that would confirm or refute a lab leak theory. Unless you have Chinese internal memos, what on earth could possibly put this issue to rest?
Conspiracies can never be disproven, and if there were credible reason to believe that the virus was engineered, we'd have it by now. (And what the hell does an average person know about "cleavage sites"? This is all a waste of time and a pretty obvious distraction.)
Even if we assume the hypothetical that there was never even a question about a lab leak. Everyone agrees it was wet market.
Fauci still has a lot of questions to answer, and things to answer for.
Like what exactly? I listened to Paul and all he ever seems to say is that Fauci is somehow guilty for COVID because the CDC funded some research that according to his tinfoil hat conspiracy led directly to the pandemic.
Let's just deal with this entry from Fauci's diary. I posted this in another thread.
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Senator Marco Rubio is acting like a real asshole. He is publicly calling me a liar about my statement in the NY Times about my assessments for the percent vaccinations needed for herd immunity. I had said that I modified my assessment of 70 to 75% to be 70 to 85% because we really did not know the precise number and I wanted to encourage people to get vaccinated to achieve herd immunity. Actually, I made that change by extrapolating the measles situation where measles vaccine is 98% effective whereas SARS-CoV-2 is 94-95% effective. Measles begins to lose herd immunity at around 89-90% of population vaccinated and so I brought up the SARS-CoV-2 to 85% with the range being 70 to 85%. For that he called me a “liar” Big hypocrite as he continues to kiss Trump’s ass – the world’s biggest liar.
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I want to start with the statement about Trump. Calling him the world's biggest liar. Believing every Chinese government official over the President of the United States is certainly a choice. I think he should have resigned over those words alone. If he believes that to be true and he wants to stay then he needs to make that public. I don't want some insane reddit poster embedding themselves in government in order to oust the president from within and using a pandemic to do it. Just the appearance of conflict of interest here is brutal condemnation of Fauci considering the position of trust he held.
Fauci said, "I had said that I modified my assessment of 70 to 75% to be 70 to 85% because we really did not know the precise number and I wanted to encourage people to get vaccinated to achieve herd immunity."
Here Fauci is confessing that science has nothing to do with these numbers. He just wants people to do what he says the science be damned. Just his sense about what is best for the country justified by the greater good. Even Fauci realized that probably wasn't a great argument, so he came up with an even worse one.
"Actually, I made that change by extrapolating the measles situation where measles vaccine is 98% effective whereas SARS-CoV-2 is 94-95% effective. Measles begins to lose herd immunity at around 89-90% of population vaccinated and so I brought up the SARS-CoV-2 to 85% with the range being 70 to 85%."
There is so much wrong here on so many levels it's almost hard to know where to begin. Suffice to say that if covid was the same as the measles then we could have just used the measles vaccine.
His logic here reminds me so much of this scene.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9y5K3KsuQ_M
«He can still be compelled to testify. This was already litigated during Iran-Contra with Oliver North. They will give him immunity for his testimony and that nullifies his 5th amendment assertion.»
Actually he has been pardoned in advance of any prosecution by Biden for anything and everything he might have done so he cannot take the 5th.
The pardon is time limited from January 1, 2014 to the date of the pardon on January, 19th 2025, and Fauci can easily argue that he can be prosecuted for anything he did relating to this after that date.
To me that is an argument that will easily be upheld by the courts, and it should be.
I briefly saw an item that Paul is pursuing contempt charges against Fauci and they can lock him up for contempt and then force him to testify with immunity. We might very well get a twofer out of this, with Fauci in prison and forced to testify.
But I wouldn't get your hopes up.
Here is the text of the pardon.
https://www.justice.gov/pardon/media/1385746/dl
«Fauci can easily argue that he can be prosecuted for anything he did relating to this after that date.»
That most likely depends on how the questions are worded. Congressional committee have very clever lawyers who can write precisely worded question if the committee really wants to dig into the matter.
There is zero reason to hang any of this on a novel one off supreme court decision when congress has very strong power to get what they want using techniques that have a long history of court sanction and approval. The constitutional role of congressional oversight is really bad ass.
If the goal is to fuck all this up, then I would strongly recommend that we pursue an irrelevant argument about the president's power of the pardon.
But I personally don't want to fuck this up.
They are going to give him immunity for obstructing the active prosecution of David M. Morens? Think about it
No, 5th amendment does NOT make Fauci look good.
Paul is providing facts and pointing out missing pieces. Fauci is hiding.
And that's what it looks like.
NOT good for Fauci.
With all due respect, Senator Peters comes across as a dumb ass.
Something of this magnitude of potential harm requires assuming the worst possible motives by those pushing for the research especially in light of the cover up and misdirection efforts by Fauci. We don’t know his true motives and don’t need to in order to see a crime has been committed. The risks were too great and millions died directly as a result. Was he asked to develop a bio weapon by some agency of some government? Probably, given his blanket pardon that makes sense so he won’t answer any question. This was a predicted outcome and possibly a desired outcome to further test the product.
Disagree with Dr. Matt. Dr. Fauci should be demonized. His actions caused a great deal of suffering, and he should be held accountable.
Fauci is not, and never will be, a victim. For what he wrought on us, for generations . . .? Too effin bad there might be a hearing.
We had a 9/11 Commission. We need a Covid Commission. Except like the 9/11 turned out, it would be filled with people to CYA the guilty/incompetent/negligent.
We definitely need a Covid Commission. Senator Ron Johnson had a hearing a few years back, in which he flourished a sheaf of documents he’d requested from the CDC. Every page was just a line of blacked-out text. The info had been completely redacted.
When the 9/11 Commission was announced, and I saw that former Illinois Gov. Jim Thompson was on it, well —
known as a guy that both sides could work with here in Illinois.
I agree! If we don’t know what happened history will repeat itself.
If the root cause is the arrogance and hubris of someone holding a high degree of authority for decades, then it's guaranteed to repeat at some point.
For me, the bigger danger is the politicization and ideological use of agencies like NIAD, and CDC who are supposed to be actually following the science. Walensky (possibly at the direction of someone inside the Biden Administration?) in particular made the choice to trade truth for compliance, and in the process degraded the future credibility of the CDC. When the next pandemic (which might actually be a severe one as opposed to a novel strain of the common cold) happens, half the country will be questioning the directives coming from Atlanta from day one.
You are right. The trust in public health is at an all-time low because they lied. If we can't trust them to speak the truth, the good and the bad, then we are doomed. I'm one of them. I don't believe most of what I hear coming from government (no matter who says it) until I dig in.
NPR coverage seems more of the same denial with sprinkling of tds it was trump’s idea to shut the country down. Fauci gets sanctified despite overwhelming evidence of fabrication and misdirection. The question is the gof ongoing, and was the pandemic a deliberate test? Why believe any Fauci narrative since he refuses to answer fundamental questions and is defended by NPR and Democrat Party politicians eager to mislead voters?
Senator Gary Peters is completely disingenuous - it’s pathetic. Really appreciate Matt Taibbi doing this. Also enjoy Dr Matt Bivens perspective, continue to solicit his views Matt. Dr Fauchi is not a scapegoat IMHO, he needs to be held to account, or at least be required to tell the unvarnished story. As Matt Bivens points out, vaccines have had their tremendous value diminished unfortunately as the House of Medicine gets politicized by all sides.
I don’t understand what Matt Bivens doesn’t understand. Why is it “like a movie” that the “face of COVID might be the creator of COVID?” Why isn’t it obvious to him that Fauci was all about himself, his career, and any potential to create something and become famous. The diary is Exhibit 1 of this and therefore relevant.
Great discussion !! Do more like this!!
Every time Fauci invokes his Fifth Amendment right to not answer, it's curious that (most probably under the advice of his attorney) at the same time Fauci doesn't say that he declines to answer under his Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination.
This would have been more interesting if Fauci tried sounding like a wise guy every time he invoked the fifth. After all, he is an Italian guy from Brooklyn. Back when the pandemic first started, P.J. O'Rourke wrote that he felt compelled to wear a mask when Fauci recommended it because he was afraid of waking up one morning with a severed horse's head in his bed.
Just thought I'd share that bit of silliness.