Callin Discussion: The Ukraine Mess, With Matt Bivens
www.racket.news
Going to be doing a special Callin tomorrow at 3:30 p.m. EST with old friend and former Moscow Times editor Matt Bivens about “Let’s Have a War,” and America’s history of bungling foreign policy in both Russia and Ukraine. Come by: link here.
Russia has a rational geopolitical interest in not having a NATO member on its border. NATO has tried to include Georgia at the of the Bush 2 administration, and Russia responded militarily to support its goal. In 2014 the West helped depose a leader of Ukraine who has not hostile to Russia. Russian responded again militarily and annexed the Crimea, notably including Sevastopol, a key military port that was part of Russia and then the USSR until 1991. Russian also set up the separatists in the two Donbas republics. In 2020-21, NATO gave Ukraine a special status, and nationalists in Kiev are again courting NATO. Hence Russia’s latest moves.
In other words there is a clear pattern of Russia escalating in response to NATO/Western actions in border countries that go against it’s interests.
I do not believe Russia has the will or capability to take over the Ukraine. The goal is a negotiated commitment for Ukraine to remain independent from NATO. The critical European nation, Germany, does not wish to get involved with Ukraine as it depends on Russia for energy. Putin thus is facing an EU that is not united. In the US there is a loud pro Ukraine cabal — Vindman and Fiona Hill types — plus the usual neocons who are spoiling for intervention particularly after we left Afghanistan. These types are pressuring the Biden crew to deploy troops, and Biden would love to have another topic in the news to distract from domestic failings, but I bet that in the end he will not send troops.
We are in an economic war with China. Wall Street, big tech and media corporations, and the political establishment get richer.
We are in an "heath emergency" war with the health bureaucrats. Wall Street, the big pharma corporations, and the political establishment get richer.
The are trying to start a war with the global warming zealots. Wall Street, the big alternative energy industry corporations, and the political establishment would get richer.
They are also trying to start a military war with Russia. Wall Street, big defense contractor corporations, and the political establishment would get richer.
Why, oh, why, must we always have this Russian “ Bogeyman”? SSDD. And btw, how many Americans know that RUSSIA is no longer the USSR? Whatever your guess, it’s lower.
It seems that the eastern Ukraine (the Donbas) part of this problem could have been settled years ago if the US and Europe had held the Ukraine to abide by the minsk 2 agreement.
My understanding is that the Ukraine signed onto the Steinmeier formula which is part of Minsk 2. It called for an election in the Donbas to determine if they wanted autonomy within the Ukraine.
The Ukraine added conditions before the election could be held. The conditions were basically that Russia should cease support for the separatists and totally withdraw.
Does anyone know about this? It is not covered at all in the US media.
I don't have an iPhone so I cannot ask this question in the callin.
My son is an army artillery officer, and a few of his friends have received orders to deploy to Ukraine - one of them got the orders in December, so the planning has been in place over a month.
BTW I was based in Moscow in the mid to late 90s, I remember the two Matts as editors of their respective papers. I even went to a couple of Exile parties.
Currently in Canada there is a truck convoy protesting Trudeau's inane Covid policies. Trudeau has called this a "small, fringe minority" on their way to Ottawa who "hold unacceptable views."
When the front part of the convoy was entering Ottawa the back end was entering Manitoba. That is roughly 1,176 miles of trucks. 600 American trucks joined them. Unity is a beautiful thing. Unless you're in the ruling class. They seem to really fucking hate that.
Call me crazy but it's beginning to appear that Trudeau is the "small, fringe minority" who holds "unacceptable views."
Maybe Trudy should have read his de Tocqueville.
“When I refuse to obey an unjust law, I do not contest the right of the majority to command, but I simply appeal from the sovereignty of the people to the sovereignty of mankind.”
― Alexis de Tocqueville
“Tyranny in democratic republics does not proceed in the same way, however. It ignores the body and goes straight for the soul. The master no longer says: You will think as I do or die. He says: You are free not to think as I do. You may keep your life, your property, and everything else. But from this day forth you shall be as a stranger among us. You will retain your civic privileges, but they will be of no use to you. For if you seek the votes of your fellow citizens, they will withhold them, and if you seek only their esteem, they will feign to refuse even that. You will remain among men, but you will forfeit your rights to humanity. When you approach your fellow creatures, they will shun you as one who is impure. And even those who believe in your innocence will abandon you, lest they, too, be shunned in turn. Go in peace, I will not take your life, but the life I leave you with is worse than death.”
― Alexis de Tocqueville
“Society will develop a new kind of servitude which covers the surface of society with a network of complicated rules, through which the most original minds and the most energetic characters cannot penetrate. It does not tyrannise but it compresses, enervates, extinguishes, and stupefies a people, till each nation is reduced to nothing better than a flock of timid and industrious animals, of which the government is the shepherd.”
― Alexis de Tocqueville
In conclusion I'd like to offer a tribute to ex-hippy Neil Young who obviously didn't learn a damn thing over the years.
Most Americans don't know where Ukraine is. I was born there. Russians don't have man power to take whole country. They can take up to Odessa.
Having said that, we need to deter potential Russian assertiveness because if we back off, China will unify Taiwan very soon. After that real chaos will start. Putin knows we will not send troops to defend corrupt, disfunctional failing state that Ukraine is becoming. Europeans will not fight for Ukraine either.
This discussion is going to be great! One thing I learned in university is that Russia has always liked to buffer itself with friendly countries. Some countries might be outright conquered. But, also It would invite into Russia and hand out (usually non-contiguous) estates to nobles of neighboring countries. A really different idea of securing borders by making them more permeable. So imagine how they feel about the possibility that Ukraine (which includes lots of ethnic Russians) would join NATO?
Matt: In the call-in, would you and your guest please comment on the principal similarities and differences of Putin's claim to part or all of Ukraine as a geographical and ethnic Russian buffer zone compared to Hitler's claim in 1938 to Czechoslovak's Sudetenland and its 3 million ethnic Germans as a buffer zone for Germany. And, as a corollary, would you please discuss Chamberlain's negotiating posture with Hitler as a suitable model, or not, for negotiating and settling with Putin. Look forward to your always interesting and stimulating discussions. Richard
My Ukrainian co-worker is currently living in Kiev, near the Belarus border; her mother has some kind of friends connected w/the government and said a lot of people are leaving -- my co-worker is trying to come up with some kind of escape plan or something. Madness. Really grateful for your coverage! For you in general. TY
I listened to several minutes of the discussion which were consumed with old stories of the speakers' experiences in Russia. I left because did not want to spend time listening to that. I hope the speakers eventually talked about the topic of foreign policy towards Russia and Ukraine.
I was very good friends with a Macedonia person when Clinton bombed Serbia. First he felt , America would never bomb Serbia, but than he thought Russia would protect them. The ties with Russia are very strong in old Yugoslavia
Bivens: "Why do we need NATO?" Yet, we have Putin massing troops on Ukraine's border, massing troops in Belarus , a supposedly independent state, and Taibbi and Bivens think NATO is a threat.
The Hitler-Chamberlain analogies are well taken, and Team D.C. seems to be right on schedule. Biden makes Chamberlain look like a piker when it comes to giving away the farm, and Putin's ego should be as inflated as Hitler's was after all his cost free "victories" pre-Poland. Germany was obviously looking to encroach on our good thing, until Hitler started a war he had no hope of winning, and just so Putin should be done away with sooner rather than later. Letting the Europeans fight to near exhaustion will probably work again, then shuffle in and clean up. The gas shut off is a nice touch. Give Russia a black eye while we drain Europe's gold reserves. We can make them a deal they can't refuse. Central Asia beckons, the ultimate redevelopment program.
A caller mentioned the low ages for marital consent in the South after the Civil War. I just want to point out that, right now as I type, it is legal for 14-year-old males and 12-year-old females to marry -- in Massachusetts. New Hampshire, 14 and 13. I guess they want to be prepared in case Sherman marches through. As for New York, they raised the age from 14 to 18 way back in, let's see, last summer.
Louisiana? Can't get married until 16, no matter if you have parental consent or not. At age 16 and 17, you can marry with consent of the parents and a judge -- but even then not to someone more than three years older.
The caller was making a point about loss of life in war and intended no insult. But, man, the crazy things people come up with about the South...
Well said and statistically interesting. Thanks for taking time to write. Personally, I've I've more or less accepted the inevitable. "No hope knows no fear."
The people in the south after the civil war let there girls marry young to have babies so there would be youth to do the work. And the girls didn’t eat at home anymore. You guys must be romantics
"What is Nato"? "OK it has a parliament". Seriously this statement was made on the Callin w/o objection by Taibbi. Nato is not the EU. Good grief. I think Taibbi and his guest have spent so much time in Russia or studying Russia that they have warped their perspectives. Plus they think that given Taibbi's living there back in the 90s and Bivens connection including his wife, narrows their perspective precisely the way they both claim "the West" does. There is a threat to the countries abutting Russia. Vlad would just love to force them to kneel. But neither Taibbi nor Bivens seem to get this.
The last thing I'd like to see is a war with Russia - by the US, by Nato. But, hey, by Ukraine, too.
Taibbi just said, in reference to Cuba and America's refusal to accept Russian weapons in Cuba, that why should we find problematic Russia's "refusal" to accept NATO weapons in the former USSR states. What shallow thinking. Clearly they are dupes for Russia.
"Turn Ukraine against [Russia]". That was Bivens. Are you serious? Ukraine, the geography of Chernobyl. OF Russian cyberattacks. This is beyond stupid.
1) NATO, which has never acted aggressively towards Russia and is made up of countries with no backbone for a fight OR
2) ordinary Russians getting ideas after watching their "brotherly" Slavic neighbor overthrow their own corrupt Putin puppet dictator by popular revolt, have free and open elections, become more democratic and free? Once Yanukovich was deposed the Ukrainians scheduled elections for 3 months later in May 2014. Since then they have had another election and voted in a new president - while over in Russia Putin continues to poison, imprison, or murder his political rivals.
Russians were told by Putin from the beginning that Ukraine was taken over by Nazis and, like their grandparents in the Great Patriotic War, it was Russia's duty to stop them. The NATO excuse is a smokescreen. Putin isn't afraid of NATO, he is afraid of suffering the same fate as Ceausescu.
Never have I seen the MSM so negligent, acting as government lap-dogs on this issue. And I got so tires of responding to friends with piecemeal responses to questions like "So, you think it's OK that Putin invaded the Ukraine"; or "Took over Crimea?". And I started responding those kinds of questions by saying "read this" (the link below) and then get back to me (with better) questions. It's my (hastily put together) mini-primer on the basic events that I think you have to know before one can even ask intelligent questions about "The Ukraine Crises". If I had to title it I would call it "Everything you SHOULD know about the Ukraine but the media has failed to tell you". Hope it helps. any. I welcome any comments and corrections of fact.
matt, I realize you'll probably not see this post, but I say it anyway. I for one am working and often cannot participate due to time constraints, not to mention, no Apple devices of any kind. Your choice of platforms was a poor one for callins, there are plenty of platforms for this sort of thing. Additionally, IMO, the choice to go with live callins at all with half of your subscribers not eligible, even if they didn't have time constraints makes things worse. I haven't looked yet, so I hope at the very least there are transcripts conveniently available, or archived audios (not Apple proprietary formats, please). Bottom line, rethink this please.
My God Matt do you know "The Exile: Sex, Drugs, and Libel in the New Russia" paperback, used, is going for $4,165.10 on Amazon! Guess I'm not the only one with a youthful past (way past) that had a fondness for 'assholes' and an high bar for 'misogyny' :)
Russia has a rational geopolitical interest in not having a NATO member on its border. NATO has tried to include Georgia at the of the Bush 2 administration, and Russia responded militarily to support its goal. In 2014 the West helped depose a leader of Ukraine who has not hostile to Russia. Russian responded again militarily and annexed the Crimea, notably including Sevastopol, a key military port that was part of Russia and then the USSR until 1991. Russian also set up the separatists in the two Donbas republics. In 2020-21, NATO gave Ukraine a special status, and nationalists in Kiev are again courting NATO. Hence Russia’s latest moves.
In other words there is a clear pattern of Russia escalating in response to NATO/Western actions in border countries that go against it’s interests.
I do not believe Russia has the will or capability to take over the Ukraine. The goal is a negotiated commitment for Ukraine to remain independent from NATO. The critical European nation, Germany, does not wish to get involved with Ukraine as it depends on Russia for energy. Putin thus is facing an EU that is not united. In the US there is a loud pro Ukraine cabal — Vindman and Fiona Hill types — plus the usual neocons who are spoiling for intervention particularly after we left Afghanistan. These types are pressuring the Biden crew to deploy troops, and Biden would love to have another topic in the news to distract from domestic failings, but I bet that in the end he will not send troops.
Let's have a war
So you can go and die!
Let's have a war!
We could all use the money!
Let's have a war!
We need the space!
Let's have a war!
Clean out this place!
It already started in the city!
Suburbia will be just as easy!
There's so many of us
There's so many of us
There's so many
Let's have a war!
Jack up the Dow Jones!
Let's have a war!
It can start in New Jersey!
Let's have a war!
Blame it on the middle-class!
Let's have a war!
We're like rats in a cage!
It already started in the city!
Suburbia will be just as easy!
There's so many of us
Let's have a war!
Sell the rights to the networks!
Let's have a war!
Let our wallets get fat like last time!
Let's have a war!
Give guns to the queers!
Let's have a war!
The enemy's within!
We are in an economic war with China. Wall Street, big tech and media corporations, and the political establishment get richer.
We are in an "heath emergency" war with the health bureaucrats. Wall Street, the big pharma corporations, and the political establishment get richer.
The are trying to start a war with the global warming zealots. Wall Street, the big alternative energy industry corporations, and the political establishment would get richer.
They are also trying to start a military war with Russia. Wall Street, big defense contractor corporations, and the political establishment would get richer.
See the pattern?
Why, oh, why, must we always have this Russian “ Bogeyman”? SSDD. And btw, how many Americans know that RUSSIA is no longer the USSR? Whatever your guess, it’s lower.
It seems that the eastern Ukraine (the Donbas) part of this problem could have been settled years ago if the US and Europe had held the Ukraine to abide by the minsk 2 agreement.
My understanding is that the Ukraine signed onto the Steinmeier formula which is part of Minsk 2. It called for an election in the Donbas to determine if they wanted autonomy within the Ukraine.
The Ukraine added conditions before the election could be held. The conditions were basically that Russia should cease support for the separatists and totally withdraw.
Does anyone know about this? It is not covered at all in the US media.
I don't have an iPhone so I cannot ask this question in the callin.
My son is an army artillery officer, and a few of his friends have received orders to deploy to Ukraine - one of them got the orders in December, so the planning has been in place over a month.
BTW I was based in Moscow in the mid to late 90s, I remember the two Matts as editors of their respective papers. I even went to a couple of Exile parties.
Why is Callin only an apple app ): wish I could join 😪
Thanks Matt. As usual you are in the thick of things!
Currently in Canada there is a truck convoy protesting Trudeau's inane Covid policies. Trudeau has called this a "small, fringe minority" on their way to Ottawa who "hold unacceptable views."
When the front part of the convoy was entering Ottawa the back end was entering Manitoba. That is roughly 1,176 miles of trucks. 600 American trucks joined them. Unity is a beautiful thing. Unless you're in the ruling class. They seem to really fucking hate that.
Call me crazy but it's beginning to appear that Trudeau is the "small, fringe minority" who holds "unacceptable views."
Maybe Trudy should have read his de Tocqueville.
“When I refuse to obey an unjust law, I do not contest the right of the majority to command, but I simply appeal from the sovereignty of the people to the sovereignty of mankind.”
― Alexis de Tocqueville
“Tyranny in democratic republics does not proceed in the same way, however. It ignores the body and goes straight for the soul. The master no longer says: You will think as I do or die. He says: You are free not to think as I do. You may keep your life, your property, and everything else. But from this day forth you shall be as a stranger among us. You will retain your civic privileges, but they will be of no use to you. For if you seek the votes of your fellow citizens, they will withhold them, and if you seek only their esteem, they will feign to refuse even that. You will remain among men, but you will forfeit your rights to humanity. When you approach your fellow creatures, they will shun you as one who is impure. And even those who believe in your innocence will abandon you, lest they, too, be shunned in turn. Go in peace, I will not take your life, but the life I leave you with is worse than death.”
― Alexis de Tocqueville
“Society will develop a new kind of servitude which covers the surface of society with a network of complicated rules, through which the most original minds and the most energetic characters cannot penetrate. It does not tyrannise but it compresses, enervates, extinguishes, and stupefies a people, till each nation is reduced to nothing better than a flock of timid and industrious animals, of which the government is the shepherd.”
― Alexis de Tocqueville
In conclusion I'd like to offer a tribute to ex-hippy Neil Young who obviously didn't learn a damn thing over the years.
Hey hey, bye bye
Spotify told Neil to fly
There's no more Neil
On Spotify.
Hey hey, bye bye.
Most Americans don't know where Ukraine is. I was born there. Russians don't have man power to take whole country. They can take up to Odessa.
Having said that, we need to deter potential Russian assertiveness because if we back off, China will unify Taiwan very soon. After that real chaos will start. Putin knows we will not send troops to defend corrupt, disfunctional failing state that Ukraine is becoming. Europeans will not fight for Ukraine either.
Here is some useful background:
https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-historical-dispute-behind-russias-threat-to-invade-ukraine
This discussion is going to be great! One thing I learned in university is that Russia has always liked to buffer itself with friendly countries. Some countries might be outright conquered. But, also It would invite into Russia and hand out (usually non-contiguous) estates to nobles of neighboring countries. A really different idea of securing borders by making them more permeable. So imagine how they feel about the possibility that Ukraine (which includes lots of ethnic Russians) would join NATO?
Well worth watching
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4
Matt: In the call-in, would you and your guest please comment on the principal similarities and differences of Putin's claim to part or all of Ukraine as a geographical and ethnic Russian buffer zone compared to Hitler's claim in 1938 to Czechoslovak's Sudetenland and its 3 million ethnic Germans as a buffer zone for Germany. And, as a corollary, would you please discuss Chamberlain's negotiating posture with Hitler as a suitable model, or not, for negotiating and settling with Putin. Look forward to your always interesting and stimulating discussions. Richard
My Ukrainian co-worker is currently living in Kiev, near the Belarus border; her mother has some kind of friends connected w/the government and said a lot of people are leaving -- my co-worker is trying to come up with some kind of escape plan or something. Madness. Really grateful for your coverage! For you in general. TY
My enemy is not Putin but BIDEN and his slimy minions.
I listened to several minutes of the discussion which were consumed with old stories of the speakers' experiences in Russia. I left because did not want to spend time listening to that. I hope the speakers eventually talked about the topic of foreign policy towards Russia and Ukraine.
https://covertactionmagazine.com/2022/01/27/is-lockheed-martin-dictating-politicos-war-propaganda-articles-in-secret-hell-no-theyre-doing-it-right-out-in-the-open/
Is Lockheed Martin Dictating Politico’s War Propaganda Articles in Secret?
Hell No–They’re Doing it Right Out in the Open
I was very good friends with a Macedonia person when Clinton bombed Serbia. First he felt , America would never bomb Serbia, but than he thought Russia would protect them. The ties with Russia are very strong in old Yugoslavia
Bivens: "Why do we need NATO?" Yet, we have Putin massing troops on Ukraine's border, massing troops in Belarus , a supposedly independent state, and Taibbi and Bivens think NATO is a threat.
The Hitler-Chamberlain analogies are well taken, and Team D.C. seems to be right on schedule. Biden makes Chamberlain look like a piker when it comes to giving away the farm, and Putin's ego should be as inflated as Hitler's was after all his cost free "victories" pre-Poland. Germany was obviously looking to encroach on our good thing, until Hitler started a war he had no hope of winning, and just so Putin should be done away with sooner rather than later. Letting the Europeans fight to near exhaustion will probably work again, then shuffle in and clean up. The gas shut off is a nice touch. Give Russia a black eye while we drain Europe's gold reserves. We can make them a deal they can't refuse. Central Asia beckons, the ultimate redevelopment program.
Hot damn! Taibbi and Bivens together. If I manage to call in, it will be like a Make-a-Wish event.
A caller mentioned the low ages for marital consent in the South after the Civil War. I just want to point out that, right now as I type, it is legal for 14-year-old males and 12-year-old females to marry -- in Massachusetts. New Hampshire, 14 and 13. I guess they want to be prepared in case Sherman marches through. As for New York, they raised the age from 14 to 18 way back in, let's see, last summer.
Louisiana? Can't get married until 16, no matter if you have parental consent or not. At age 16 and 17, you can marry with consent of the parents and a judge -- but even then not to someone more than three years older.
The caller was making a point about loss of life in war and intended no insult. But, man, the crazy things people come up with about the South...
It's saturday the 29th. This am news is US China spat re taiwan.
Losin air in the covid balloon. We need more sizzle. So right after the superbowl we'll bomb the shit outa them! Now's as gooda time as any!
Mascot
Well said and statistically interesting. Thanks for taking time to write. Personally, I've I've more or less accepted the inevitable. "No hope knows no fear."
The people in the south after the civil war let there girls marry young to have babies so there would be youth to do the work. And the girls didn’t eat at home anymore. You guys must be romantics
On the Callin:
"What is Nato"? "OK it has a parliament". Seriously this statement was made on the Callin w/o objection by Taibbi. Nato is not the EU. Good grief. I think Taibbi and his guest have spent so much time in Russia or studying Russia that they have warped their perspectives. Plus they think that given Taibbi's living there back in the 90s and Bivens connection including his wife, narrows their perspective precisely the way they both claim "the West" does. There is a threat to the countries abutting Russia. Vlad would just love to force them to kneel. But neither Taibbi nor Bivens seem to get this.
The last thing I'd like to see is a war with Russia - by the US, by Nato. But, hey, by Ukraine, too.
Taibbi just said, in reference to Cuba and America's refusal to accept Russian weapons in Cuba, that why should we find problematic Russia's "refusal" to accept NATO weapons in the former USSR states. What shallow thinking. Clearly they are dupes for Russia.
"Turn Ukraine against [Russia]". That was Bivens. Are you serious? Ukraine, the geography of Chernobyl. OF Russian cyberattacks. This is beyond stupid.
Which scares Putin more,
1) NATO, which has never acted aggressively towards Russia and is made up of countries with no backbone for a fight OR
2) ordinary Russians getting ideas after watching their "brotherly" Slavic neighbor overthrow their own corrupt Putin puppet dictator by popular revolt, have free and open elections, become more democratic and free? Once Yanukovich was deposed the Ukrainians scheduled elections for 3 months later in May 2014. Since then they have had another election and voted in a new president - while over in Russia Putin continues to poison, imprison, or murder his political rivals.
Russians were told by Putin from the beginning that Ukraine was taken over by Nazis and, like their grandparents in the Great Patriotic War, it was Russia's duty to stop them. The NATO excuse is a smokescreen. Putin isn't afraid of NATO, he is afraid of suffering the same fate as Ceausescu.
Never have I seen the MSM so negligent, acting as government lap-dogs on this issue. And I got so tires of responding to friends with piecemeal responses to questions like "So, you think it's OK that Putin invaded the Ukraine"; or "Took over Crimea?". And I started responding those kinds of questions by saying "read this" (the link below) and then get back to me (with better) questions. It's my (hastily put together) mini-primer on the basic events that I think you have to know before one can even ask intelligent questions about "The Ukraine Crises". If I had to title it I would call it "Everything you SHOULD know about the Ukraine but the media has failed to tell you". Hope it helps. any. I welcome any comments and corrections of fact.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1UnLOmFrhgJqo3FSk3wrKefZXySp6QGIZITWO2ZfJi80/edit?usp=sharing
Tomorrow meaning Thursday or Friday?
matt, I realize you'll probably not see this post, but I say it anyway. I for one am working and often cannot participate due to time constraints, not to mention, no Apple devices of any kind. Your choice of platforms was a poor one for callins, there are plenty of platforms for this sort of thing. Additionally, IMO, the choice to go with live callins at all with half of your subscribers not eligible, even if they didn't have time constraints makes things worse. I haven't looked yet, so I hope at the very least there are transcripts conveniently available, or archived audios (not Apple proprietary formats, please). Bottom line, rethink this please.
My God Matt do you know "The Exile: Sex, Drugs, and Libel in the New Russia" paperback, used, is going for $4,165.10 on Amazon! Guess I'm not the only one with a youthful past (way past) that had a fondness for 'assholes' and an high bar for 'misogyny' :)
There is no real problem. The world isn't run that way, except for the plebs to manage and control, and pretty much extract from them.
I hope Putin will be blamed for starting this mess, rather than Biden just because he happens to be around.