This week’s article about “The Folly of Pandemic Censorship” drew a significant response, but there have also been some crazy developments since its publication, including an appearance by the Surgeon General on MSNBC suggesting that we use “the power that we have” to crack down even more on wrongthinkers. Let’s talk about why this is crazy and dangerous on Callin at 4:00 p.m. EST today, link here:
"Crack down on wrongthinkers"? Geez. That's as dangerous and nonsensical a notion from the left as banning MAUS is from the right. God save of us all from the censors.
Maus wasn't banned or removed, it was decided to find something more age appropriate to use as part of the curriculum. If you've read Maus you would probably agree that much of the language and scenes aren't appropriate for 14 year olds
funny, there was a time, in my lifetime, when 14 year olds were not considered innocent children that had to be protected from "bad" words or what the Nazi's did. Continually increasing the age at which people are considered children only infantilizes them, makes them less able to function in the real world, makes them think that words are violence (when they are not) and that they deserve to be safe forever and ever amen. Protecting young human beings from the harsh facts of life is the essence of our nation's denial, which has become an obsession. Sharing the reality of the world does not mean brutalizing young humans (as some parents actually do) but rather teaching them how to deal with the world they are going to encounter in their lifetime. It is an act of love. "Protecting" them is actually hate disguised as love.
We were taught about the Nazis and their genocidal doctrine in fourth grade. We saw actual films of mass burials at the camps. Read William Shirer's "Rise and Fall of The Third Reich" for an idea of how this came to pass.
It was required reading in the early '60's...fine book. I agree that "teaching" must include documents, news reels and historical accounts, such as William Shirer's book. Even Hitler's "Mein Kampf" offers some poignant insights
LOL, you must be much younger than I. When I was 14, the realities of the Holocaust was absolutely shielded from children, even by my Jewish parents. We didn't learn of the atrocities until high school or later. But I would agree on your point that children today are too protected from the realities of life.
truth. crazy enough, there is now the idea that there is such a thing as "second hand" PTSD, that is, people get traumatized from reading books or seeing movies or reading articles. All that focus on "safety" has not really produced any beneficial outcomes, the contrary actually.
I would go a step further and encourage kids to sample from all of the atrocities of the 20th century. I think some of this nonsense belief that only the right can be totalitarian is because kids are largely ignorant of what Stalin, mao and pol pot did.
We read Anne Frank around 8th grade. We also read Elie Wiesel's Night around 9th grade and that was incredibly unflinching. And this was in the deep south! I didn't read Maus until college, but it was only a year or two old at that point. I don't recall it being much more controversial than the other prose on the holocaust we read.
There have always been parents in red states trying to have books removed from the curriculum based on assumed "adult content," but it's supercharged because of the culture wars.
Removing books like Huck Finn and To Kill a Mockingbird from the curriculum in blue states based on their "racism" is just as bad. (I read that one school took Lord of the Flies off the junior high reading list based on "centering white supremacy" or some such buzzword-salad, and at least a couple removing Catcher in the Rye, for "glorifying incels" or something. Who decides what is unacceptable, or what is literature, or what is art?)
I could not read the diary I was already traumatized. My grandfather exiled all his children from Europe in the 1920s. My father lost one sister, her husband and two nephews who could not survive in NYC and returned to middleclass life in Poland. My father attended both Hebrew and Catholic school in Poland. Guilt is a terrible burden even when there is no justification for the guilt.
I recall when Schindler's List came out (at 10 years old), there being a debate among parents about whether to let their kids watch it. Almost everyone did. Learning about the harsh realities of the world is important. No one was traumatized.
In fact, my brothers and I were allowed to watch pretty much anything, from Robocop to Predator to Braveheart, so a movie like Schindler's List was, if anything, a much better choice. We all ended up well behaved, well adjusted kids, who went on to be successful students and adults because we had discipline and rules and guidance. There's obviously room for disagreement as to when it's appropriate to start introducing children to more explicit and violent material. But kids really don't need to be shielded as much as (or as late as) we think.
I am 70, WWII movies were everywhere. It was not a secret then and is not now, nor are cusswords. I have always thought it immensely hypocritical for people to deplore cusswords (and tell people how they MUST speak) and then to engage in behaviors that actually demonstrate the words they want banned. Once again, Americans going for the superficial solution.
I think it’s more insidious than that. And I absofucking-lutely agree… kids learn all of it, anyway, and then learn from watching adult behavior around it as well. It’s generally good to not be a hypocrite.
Same. I didn't know anything about the Holocaust until high school, and only then it was present more as an abstract--an honest one, not whitewashed--then personal. It's why I like MAUS for young teens.
We had Holocaust survivors in our neighborhood. It was discussed twice a year. As a teen, it seemed brutal, the swastika scared me -- but we were not raised on Grand Theft Auto or TikTok...those parents are naive to believe that Maus is harsh for today's teens...Talk to a middle school teacher..."Innocence" is often countered by violence and sexuality introduced through commercial culture -- the digital god prevails
I've read Maus and believe that not only is the book appropriate for young teenagers, but the single best way to teach them the reality of the Holocaust. And yes, it was banned by the school board.
This is a hijack of Matt's focus, but I just want to respond to your comment: I have also read Maus, found it to be stunning and on a par with Schindler's List in the way it brought truth to the Holocaust. However, just as I would not think a 13-14 year old is yet equipped to watch Schindler's List, so too is Maus emotionally devastating and better left to more mature minds. In other words, I don't think it is appropriate for middle schoolers but then since you think it is, it must be. I guess you also agree that the schools that banned from the high school (high school!) curriculum books such as To Kill a Mockingbird and some Mark Twain books, et al. were wrong to do so also.
"I guess you also agree that the schools that banned from the high school (high school!) curriculum books such as To Kill a Mockingbird and some Mark Twain books, et al. were wrong to do so also."
Yes, I do think they were wrong to ban those books, and by the way, I'm glad you agree the correct word in all these cases is "ban."
They hardly have a monopoly on that, do they? The gender binary? Evolutionary psychology? The normal distribution?? (See that Scientific American piece everyone’s getting so hot under the collar about)
Well, let me pull up the first definition of a red herring argument that pops up on my screen: "This fallacy consists in diverting attention from the real issue by focusing instead on an issue having only a surface relevance to the first." A book that was taken from the curriculum as inappropriate for middle schoolers (not banned by the way) by one school district, whether you agree that it is inappropriate for 13-14 year olds or not, has nothing to do with a nationwide push to censor discussions among the adult citizenry that the the "ruling class" disagrees with. In other words, you diverted attention from the issue by making some claim that has no relevance.
I know what a red herring is; I asked what you meant by it. Now that I know ...
... you're wrong. I'm not diverting attention from anything; to the contrary, I reinforced the wrongness of the leftist censorship Matt wrote about by comparing it to the wrongness of rightist censorship (banning MAUS). Censorship is a dangerous tool, and that two outrageous examples happened the very same week made my comparison effective.
And yes, it was banned by the school board. An incredibly boneheaded decision--MAUS is not only appropriate for young teenagers, it remains the single best way to show them the horrors of the Holocaust without shoving pictures of Jewish corpses down their throats.
I will have to agree with you on that last sentence although I still can't fault the school district from their decision. People have different opinions and that opinion is a long way from the ruling class trying to censor what adults can discuss. Still apples and oranges.
Back in the 1960's two teachers at Claremont HS in Claremont, CA did a prolonged class on the end result of the 1930's propaganda. The presented all the propaganda in favor of a fascist government without censoring it or immediately criticizing it. An overwhelming number of students came to support the Nazi agenda without knowing it was Nazism. The last day of the sessions on pre WWII Germany (I think it was after 10 to 14 days), the teachers showed where the policies which the students believed were so great lead -- the death camps. Parents complained that their children were upset.
I meant that they let the propaganda speak for itself so that the students were responding to what the Nazis had told the German people and not to what the teachers' ideas. Of course, it had been translated from the German
why do these people think that Joe Rogan and his guests are driving the discussion as opposed to simply reacting to what's going out on in the world that the main stream media sources are ignoring?
depends what you are defining as pseudoscience - Malone's insights on the vaccines and their technology are right on the mark, as I'd expect from someone involved with the development of the tech, yet I've seen some take issue with this information. If you are talking about his promotion of the whole mass formation idea, that notion is wide open for criticism. But there is something odd about this push to mandate a vaccine that doesn't stop transmission - and trying to force it on 5 year olds, and now 2 year olds, is just wrong, period.
Android app (and live web listening) is coming in a few weeks. At that time you'll be able to call in and participate in Matt's live rooms. Until then, you can listen to published episodes and highlights from a computer or Android device via the web app. Catch all of Matt's episodes here: https://www.callin.com/show/tk-live-VOaYFhTeLH
The misinformation is far more fundamental than that. Social distancing is based on a measurement of how far sneeze droplets flew. That was done by a German bacteriologist in the 1890s. When imaging technology improved, it turned out that droplets from viral sneezes flew far further- not two meters, but eight meters, or 28 feet. Mask studies have been performed in Bangladesh; almost all masks are useless. This has been known by medical scientists for more than two years. N95/KN95 masks are effective only when properly worn. Fortunately, the three living in our household are all medically knowledgeable.
The risk to people under 20 contracting the disease is less than the risk of a serious outcome from a a vaccination from an mRNA vaccine. And, the traditional vaccines are carried by adenoviruses, which cause the same effects as mild COVID. In addition, if one has adenovirus antibodies, carried by about 50% of all men over 60, the carrier will be killed before it can kill the virus.
We need to stop hearings on the January 6 brouhaha and open hearings on the Biden klepofamily. It should be easy to do once Republicans gain control of one house of congress. I know Attorney General Garland will refuse to deliver any subpoenas issued by a Republican-controlled committee, just as Eric Holder did before him. That will tell us everything we need to know. The first subpoena needs to be for Hunter Biden's financials
Ecologist Alan Savory: "People are coming out of the university with a master's degree or a Phd, you take them into the field and they literally don't believe anything unless it's in a peer reviewed paper. That's the only thing they accept.
"And you say to them...Let's observe, let's think, let's discuss. They don't do it. Just, "is it in a peer reviewed paper or not?' That's their view of science.
I think it's pathetic.
They've gone into universities as bright young people, they come out of them brain dead! Not even knowing what science means."
Of course you're obsessed with Hunter Biden. Pure nonsense. Let's just casually hand wave away a violent insurrection after an election where the exiting President tried to cling to power by any means possible.
Let's keep our eyes up here. Hunter Biden's verified content in the laptop(s) displays contempt for the rule of law, and documents some of the illegal activities of his kleoptomaniacal family. He's recently been quoted complaining that he has had to pay everyone else's bills in the family for years.
Hunter, his father, his Uncle Jim, and the rest of the gang have lined their own pockets for decades. Today Nancy Pelosi is ensuring that nobody ever forgets that average Americans viciously followed the invitations of capitol police to enter the capitol building and mostly stayed within the visitors' ropes. In a city where there is little to any bail for attempted murder, these violent sightseers carried no weapons, and have been jailed for over a year.
The only violence claimed was the death of a capitol hill police officer, who reported that evening that reports of his death had been greatly exaggerated. The only violence committed was shooting a single protester, Ashlee Babbit, for the crime of breaking a window.
Read Peter Schweitzer's books. He's a prize-winning investigative journalist, representing the New York Times when it was still a newspaper.
Android app (and live web listening) is coming in a few weeks. At that time you'll be able to call in and participate in Matt's live rooms. Until then, you can listen to published episodes and highlights from a computer or Android device via the web app. Catch all of Matt's episodes here: https://www.callin.com/show/tk-live-VOaYFhTeLH
Android app (and live web listening) is coming in a few weeks. At that time you'll be able to call in and participate in Matt's live rooms. Until then, you can listen to published episodes and highlights from a computer or Android device via the web app. Catch all of Matt's episodes here: https://www.callin.com/show/tk-live-VOaYFhTeLH
Matt, this is was a great episode, and the Callin show has been quite enjoyable.
To respond to what you said at the end of the episode of people being sick of the censorship coverage: I, for one, think your devotion to this topic is important and necessary, and I don't think that a lot of your readers are sick of it. Many of us are as upset about this as you are, and we hope you'll continue to cover it.
Campbell has been dillegently covering the science behind the pandemic since it's inception.
Also interesting is Medcram, also on YouTube.
It's a continuing ed program for medical professionals, but very understandable to non professionals. They go into great depth about the organic and molecular chemistry of virology.
This thread is getting a bit scattered. It's important to keep all the elements of this issue in temporal and spacial context.
A pandemic formed. The outcome could have been globally catastrophic or it could have been nothing. In the face of quickly evolving uncertainties, those who were present enough to grasp the situation reacted the best they could using the worst case scenario as a base line. A reasonable course given the possibilities. And now, here we are critiquing events in the past through the lens of present knowledge. That's great and what we should be doing.
It's more or less how the scientific method works and how we empirically learn and move forward.
Absolutely big pharma should be transparent (ha ha like thats ever gonna happen- at least before the revolution) more ha ha.
But keep in mind how fast things were moving and what the stakes were. It amazese how many people I knew who died from covid. This is no time for self righteous rear view mirror ego jerking. Learn, develop better strategies and move on.
The same day Woody Allen's book deal was quashed, I walked into the local Barnes and Noble and physically held a copy of Mein Kompf that was for sale. Also, the Apple only stuff is super irritating. Would very much like to join, but not so much that I would buy an Apple product.
I was just now looking for an android app. Kind of a bummer, this looks like a really cool event. Tbh though I expect if/when they release it, it will be rife with trackers and other malevolent forms of high tech surveillance. Generally speaking, fuck apps. I hope the web version is finished soon.
Matt, we are tired of hearing from “the intellectual dark web” on the topics of censorship, CRT, and all things righteous that the left usurped from the Church Lady crowd. I would love to hear an expert on critical thinking and philosophy break down what’s right and wrong about the new morality. And what both sides are missing in the face of collapse of the American empire.
It constantly amazes me how this administration and it's minions work in the language of censorship. That's a non-starter for me, period. They determine that discussion on important policy decisions be curtailed with "the power that we have". Excuse me if I hear echoes of the Cultural Revolution.
Matt, when you say "Let's talk..." at 4:00 p.m. EST today what does that mean? Does this mean you talk, and I listen restrospectively on an archived version of this conversation presented on a future (meaning after 4 pm today)TK podcost archive link, Youtube link, or otherwise? If not, can you please give some instruction on how a subscriber, such as myself, with an android phone can call and actually "talk" on a live, interactive call offered to your subscribers? Or is there a link someone can provide that explains how to set this "Callin" application up on my phone? Thank you.
Android app (and live web listening) is coming in a few weeks. At that time you'll be able to call in and participate in Matt's live rooms. Until then, you can listen to published episodes and highlights from a computer or Android device via the web app. Catch all of Matt's episodes here: https://www.callin.com/show/tk-live-VOaYFhTeLH
"listen to published" episodes does not = participation.
I don't believe it is ethical to invite subscribers to a call in episode when they are not able to participate because they have not purchased a particular brand of expensive phone. Its unnecessarily discriminatory. It also seems like a bait and switch advertising from a subscription sales perspective. This wasn't disclosed at the time you offered a subscription to me. I am glad that you are making efforts to correct this, but until that time, I believe you should refrain from offering call-in participation segments. It's not illegal, per say, but it's just not right-- in my opinion.
I wouldn't think so. The Substack business model requires open and honest writing to get people to subscribe. Since it's supported by reader money, not advertising, censors would find it difficult to shut down anyway.,
if a liberal is silencing is maybe not a liberal but mustlikely a conservative, instagram shoot down my 25k followers account because i said i dont need the vacccine because i have antibody
you can't make that erroneous statement better. they don't silence ALL the conservatives, otherwise I would have no idea what they are saying. and believe me, I do. I read widely across political boundaries. Both sides are crazy now. only people like Matt are in the sane middle.
There are two Americas and it depends which America you belong to whether you are a liberal or a conservative.
If you are a neoliberal the government of the people by the people and for the people is your enemy. If the government is your enemy you are NOT a conservative
If you are a liberal your government belongs to you and serves your interest.
America is deciding on whether it is a neoliberal democracy or a liberal democracy while Rome is burning.
You are still thinking in the fake conservitive/liberal construct. Everyone who deviates from the mainstream "moderate" view is being censored. It just seems like your side is more censored due to confirmation bias.
I always quite liked “moderate” views. But I genuinely don’t know at this point where, if anywhere, I stand on any putative political spectrum. I suppose I tend to think that “the right” comes in for more censorship these days, but half the time it’s actually liberals, or what I would call liberals, being mobbed by self-described liberals who look more like tricoteuses to me. The other half of the time, the culture war looks to me like a self-reinforcing dance of bad-faith actors, where the critical race crowd need the actual racist crazy folk to justify their own craziness — and vice versa — so that the more bile is emitted by the Right, the further the Left feels entitled to go in spouting its bilge, bilge which drives more people away from the centre and towards the fringes, thereby justifying more bile, more bilge… and so it goes on… repeat until there is nothing left but a war of all against all.
The political spectrum is an artificial construct designed to shoehorn everyone into two superficially different political parties who bicker over only the culture wars.
The cultural and political realignment going on will place you next to people you never envisioned knowing, and at odds with people you’ve known forever. It will foment emotional responses you may not be prepared for.
The seas are stormy, the ride is rough, but here we are.
if mein stream media silence you is maybe because you think as conservative not like the left because they are silencing everyone speak agains their socialist agenda
I don't believe they target conservative any more than liberal. It seems to me that they are targeting anyone that speaks counter to the official narratives. Mostly they tend to be freedom oriented people from the right and left.
well, mein herr. I am a democratic socialist; that is not why i have been censored. The woke brigade are crazy, so are the Qanon people. They are mirror images of each other. The primary and largest socialist (actually communist) organization in the United States? The military. EVERYTHING is provided to them, even insurance for the military vehicles they drive, their clothing, their food, their medical care. Not sure where people go such a strange avoidance to the maintenance of public infrastructure and caring for the public good to the extent they label it socialism. OH, right, the conservative groups to want to privatize everything. How's that unrestrained corporate behavior working out for the country?
One of the greatest parts of the Constitution forces the powerful to hold elections every two years. Those running on a pro-censorship, pro-mandate, pro-CRT platform/tweets/interviews will I predict find it more than normally difficult to survive.
Regarding Maus, different areas of the country will have different levels of what parents find acceptable. Any of those 8th graders can easily get a copy of Maus overnighted from Amazon if they or their parents find it that important. It's not like the book was banned in the functional sense that it's very difficult to acquire, unlike many books actually banned by Amazon. The left has some truly pathetic displays of what-aboutism when it comes to cancel culture. FFS, the on-goings of the McMinn County, TN schoolboard is now national news? This reminds me of 2013 era rage-bait when HuffPo and Slate would hyperventilate over every offensive tweet by some dogcatcher in Bucksnort, Arkansas.
Why don't you put the recording on Substack as a pod ep? Their web payer is kinda crap.
Is there a technical reason? A legal one? Or a Bartleby reason (you prefer not to but won't say why)?
If the problem is not having time, I'll organize to transfer the audio to something that can be published in RSS and listed in the various pod apps (Spotify, Apple, PocketCasts, etc.)
Keep up the fight! I really enjoyed your hard-hitting article. We have to make sure a culture of free speech, free inquiry, and debate is protected at Substack.
Why Callin? I think you'd get a larger turnout on Twitter Spaces.
You don't counter with saying: "NN lies!". You counter with facts, logic and reasoned debate.
Screeching "NN lies!", calling for censorship, gag orders, and removal of any material containing errors is not the right way to go about things.
If NN claims that, well let's say a new untried medical treatment can have dangerous side effects, the correct way to counter is to show the reseacrh, show the tests (not just alleged results), and show the decision making process of the regulatory body complete with any bias or conflict of interest in said body.
If you instead cover up, double down, and clamp shut everything and everyone asking questions or making challenges? Well, you've pretty much proven that there's something wrong in the first place, haven't you?
The old adage of applying the same logic as when buying a used car holds true here as well - would anyone buy let alone drive a used car they weren't allowed to check out first?
Wrong thinkers or lie spreaders? There's a difference. Especially when the result of the lie could be death. Rebranding liars doesn't make the outcome of their lies any more palatable.
Crap so much for freedom of speach, at this point I’d like to have freedom of thought! Any movement is won with non-violence, lets not make them appear to be roght….stay calm & carry-on
My sense is that plenty of the information given on Joe Rogan is neither DIS nor MIS, it’s interesting that you didn’t push back a little bit more on that when you were asked. It seemed like a leading question…
I have been thinking a lot about Irving Layton 1912-2006 and whether in a hundred years he might be considered along with Milton as English's great poets. There is nothing so painful as a Socratic poet.
Layton wrote: "Let's stop talking about the Holocaust, We don't want to give them any ideas."
Here in Quebec I have two governments who are usually locked in opposition telling me the exact same thing.
This is a health issue not a political issue and it is nice to be able to trust our governments.
"Crack down on wrongthinkers"? Geez. That's as dangerous and nonsensical a notion from the left as banning MAUS is from the right. God save of us all from the censors.
Maus wasn't banned or removed, it was decided to find something more age appropriate to use as part of the curriculum. If you've read Maus you would probably agree that much of the language and scenes aren't appropriate for 14 year olds
funny, there was a time, in my lifetime, when 14 year olds were not considered innocent children that had to be protected from "bad" words or what the Nazi's did. Continually increasing the age at which people are considered children only infantilizes them, makes them less able to function in the real world, makes them think that words are violence (when they are not) and that they deserve to be safe forever and ever amen. Protecting young human beings from the harsh facts of life is the essence of our nation's denial, which has become an obsession. Sharing the reality of the world does not mean brutalizing young humans (as some parents actually do) but rather teaching them how to deal with the world they are going to encounter in their lifetime. It is an act of love. "Protecting" them is actually hate disguised as love.
We were taught about the Nazis and their genocidal doctrine in fourth grade. We saw actual films of mass burials at the camps. Read William Shirer's "Rise and Fall of The Third Reich" for an idea of how this came to pass.
It was required reading in the early '60's...fine book. I agree that "teaching" must include documents, news reels and historical accounts, such as William Shirer's book. Even Hitler's "Mein Kampf" offers some poignant insights
Try reading Lucy Davidowicz’s *The War Against the Jews* at 14. Go big or go home, baby.
Ouch! But, yeah, go big indeed.
LOL, you must be much younger than I. When I was 14, the realities of the Holocaust was absolutely shielded from children, even by my Jewish parents. We didn't learn of the atrocities until high school or later. But I would agree on your point that children today are too protected from the realities of life.
Nonsense. We read the Diary of Ann Frank. We weren't traumatized and did not experience PTSD.
truth. crazy enough, there is now the idea that there is such a thing as "second hand" PTSD, that is, people get traumatized from reading books or seeing movies or reading articles. All that focus on "safety" has not really produced any beneficial outcomes, the contrary actually.
Still, though, how many kids did I grow up with that wouldn't swim in the ocean thanks to Jaws :/
But yeah, everything else you say is true. Second hand PTSD is only a thing for like children of Terror War soldiers
I think I read 1984 around that age. Interestingly, considering this discussion. Never dreamed it would become a PLAYBOOK 30 years later…
Too close for comfort to reality, I'd say
I would go a step further and encourage kids to sample from all of the atrocities of the 20th century. I think some of this nonsense belief that only the right can be totalitarian is because kids are largely ignorant of what Stalin, mao and pol pot did.
Now that reenacting the Underground Railroad is problematic, maybe they could reenact the Cultural Revolution.
Oh, wait.
We read Anne Frank around 8th grade. We also read Elie Wiesel's Night around 9th grade and that was incredibly unflinching. And this was in the deep south! I didn't read Maus until college, but it was only a year or two old at that point. I don't recall it being much more controversial than the other prose on the holocaust we read.
There have always been parents in red states trying to have books removed from the curriculum based on assumed "adult content," but it's supercharged because of the culture wars.
Removing books like Huck Finn and To Kill a Mockingbird from the curriculum in blue states based on their "racism" is just as bad. (I read that one school took Lord of the Flies off the junior high reading list based on "centering white supremacy" or some such buzzword-salad, and at least a couple removing Catcher in the Rye, for "glorifying incels" or something. Who decides what is unacceptable, or what is literature, or what is art?)
My father’s generation would’ve handled this with fists.
I could not read the diary I was already traumatized. My grandfather exiled all his children from Europe in the 1920s. My father lost one sister, her husband and two nephews who could not survive in NYC and returned to middleclass life in Poland. My father attended both Hebrew and Catholic school in Poland. Guilt is a terrible burden even when there is no justification for the guilt.
Where does this guilt come from?
I recall when Schindler's List came out (at 10 years old), there being a debate among parents about whether to let their kids watch it. Almost everyone did. Learning about the harsh realities of the world is important. No one was traumatized.
In fact, my brothers and I were allowed to watch pretty much anything, from Robocop to Predator to Braveheart, so a movie like Schindler's List was, if anything, a much better choice. We all ended up well behaved, well adjusted kids, who went on to be successful students and adults because we had discipline and rules and guidance. There's obviously room for disagreement as to when it's appropriate to start introducing children to more explicit and violent material. But kids really don't need to be shielded as much as (or as late as) we think.
I am 70, WWII movies were everywhere. It was not a secret then and is not now, nor are cusswords. I have always thought it immensely hypocritical for people to deplore cusswords (and tell people how they MUST speak) and then to engage in behaviors that actually demonstrate the words they want banned. Once again, Americans going for the superficial solution.
I think it’s more insidious than that. And I absofucking-lutely agree… kids learn all of it, anyway, and then learn from watching adult behavior around it as well. It’s generally good to not be a hypocrite.
yes
Same. I didn't know anything about the Holocaust until high school, and only then it was present more as an abstract--an honest one, not whitewashed--then personal. It's why I like MAUS for young teens.
Speak for yourself. I read "Anus Mundi" cover to cover in a day when I was 13.
We had Holocaust survivors in our neighborhood. It was discussed twice a year. As a teen, it seemed brutal, the swastika scared me -- but we were not raised on Grand Theft Auto or TikTok...those parents are naive to believe that Maus is harsh for today's teens...Talk to a middle school teacher..."Innocence" is often countered by violence and sexuality introduced through commercial culture -- the digital god prevails
I agree
I've read Maus and believe that not only is the book appropriate for young teenagers, but the single best way to teach them the reality of the Holocaust. And yes, it was banned by the school board.
This is a hijack of Matt's focus, but I just want to respond to your comment: I have also read Maus, found it to be stunning and on a par with Schindler's List in the way it brought truth to the Holocaust. However, just as I would not think a 13-14 year old is yet equipped to watch Schindler's List, so too is Maus emotionally devastating and better left to more mature minds. In other words, I don't think it is appropriate for middle schoolers but then since you think it is, it must be. I guess you also agree that the schools that banned from the high school (high school!) curriculum books such as To Kill a Mockingbird and some Mark Twain books, et al. were wrong to do so also.
"I guess you also agree that the schools that banned from the high school (high school!) curriculum books such as To Kill a Mockingbird and some Mark Twain books, et al. were wrong to do so also."
Yes, I do think they were wrong to ban those books, and by the way, I'm glad you agree the correct word in all these cases is "ban."
I have read Maus, it is harrowing. All 14 year olds should read it.
They teach kids to be queer a lot younger than that.
Do they now. Do tell.
The right wants to ban inconvenient scientific facts, far worse.
Can both be horrible? Is that allowed?
Or do we have to pick sides over fucking everything?
They hardly have a monopoly on that, do they? The gender binary? Evolutionary psychology? The normal distribution?? (See that Scientific American piece everyone’s getting so hot under the collar about)
Red Herring.
Meaning, what?
Well, let me pull up the first definition of a red herring argument that pops up on my screen: "This fallacy consists in diverting attention from the real issue by focusing instead on an issue having only a surface relevance to the first." A book that was taken from the curriculum as inappropriate for middle schoolers (not banned by the way) by one school district, whether you agree that it is inappropriate for 13-14 year olds or not, has nothing to do with a nationwide push to censor discussions among the adult citizenry that the the "ruling class" disagrees with. In other words, you diverted attention from the issue by making some claim that has no relevance.
I know what a red herring is; I asked what you meant by it. Now that I know ...
... you're wrong. I'm not diverting attention from anything; to the contrary, I reinforced the wrongness of the leftist censorship Matt wrote about by comparing it to the wrongness of rightist censorship (banning MAUS). Censorship is a dangerous tool, and that two outrageous examples happened the very same week made my comparison effective.
And yes, it was banned by the school board. An incredibly boneheaded decision--MAUS is not only appropriate for young teenagers, it remains the single best way to show them the horrors of the Holocaust without shoving pictures of Jewish corpses down their throats.
I will have to agree with you on that last sentence although I still can't fault the school district from their decision. People have different opinions and that opinion is a long way from the ruling class trying to censor what adults can discuss. Still apples and oranges.
We are destined to disagree on this, but I appreciate your civility in doing so, and wish you a fine winter day.
Back in the 1960's two teachers at Claremont HS in Claremont, CA did a prolonged class on the end result of the 1930's propaganda. The presented all the propaganda in favor of a fascist government without censoring it or immediately criticizing it. An overwhelming number of students came to support the Nazi agenda without knowing it was Nazism. The last day of the sessions on pre WWII Germany (I think it was after 10 to 14 days), the teachers showed where the policies which the students believed were so great lead -- the death camps. Parents complained that their children were upset.
"Without censoring it" so are you in favor of censorship?
I meant that they let the propaganda speak for itself so that the students were responding to what the Nazis had told the German people and not to what the teachers' ideas. Of course, it had been translated from the German
I duno know i'z never haded one
I bought a Michele at Nieman-Marcus but I was not too impressed with it
why do these people think that Joe Rogan and his guests are driving the discussion as opposed to simply reacting to what's going out on in the world that the main stream media sources are ignoring?
Driving discussions about pseudoscience? What use is there in that other than causing harm?
depends what you are defining as pseudoscience - Malone's insights on the vaccines and their technology are right on the mark, as I'd expect from someone involved with the development of the tech, yet I've seen some take issue with this information. If you are talking about his promotion of the whole mass formation idea, that notion is wide open for criticism. But there is something odd about this push to mandate a vaccine that doesn't stop transmission - and trying to force it on 5 year olds, and now 2 year olds, is just wrong, period.
I – genuinely, earnestly, if a bit trepidatiously – wonder what you hope to add to the conversation with these comments.
Is this only for iphone users?
Android app (and live web listening) is coming in a few weeks. At that time you'll be able to call in and participate in Matt's live rooms. Until then, you can listen to published episodes and highlights from a computer or Android device via the web app. Catch all of Matt's episodes here: https://www.callin.com/show/tk-live-VOaYFhTeLH
Yup. - caust Matt knows I'm Android and he w I bet talk with me 😛
The misinformation is far more fundamental than that. Social distancing is based on a measurement of how far sneeze droplets flew. That was done by a German bacteriologist in the 1890s. When imaging technology improved, it turned out that droplets from viral sneezes flew far further- not two meters, but eight meters, or 28 feet. Mask studies have been performed in Bangladesh; almost all masks are useless. This has been known by medical scientists for more than two years. N95/KN95 masks are effective only when properly worn. Fortunately, the three living in our household are all medically knowledgeable.
The risk to people under 20 contracting the disease is less than the risk of a serious outcome from a a vaccination from an mRNA vaccine. And, the traditional vaccines are carried by adenoviruses, which cause the same effects as mild COVID. In addition, if one has adenovirus antibodies, carried by about 50% of all men over 60, the carrier will be killed before it can kill the virus.
We need to stop hearings on the January 6 brouhaha and open hearings on the Biden klepofamily. It should be easy to do once Republicans gain control of one house of congress. I know Attorney General Garland will refuse to deliver any subpoenas issued by a Republican-controlled committee, just as Eric Holder did before him. That will tell us everything we need to know. The first subpoena needs to be for Hunter Biden's financials
Ecologist Alan Savory: "People are coming out of the university with a master's degree or a Phd, you take them into the field and they literally don't believe anything unless it's in a peer reviewed paper. That's the only thing they accept.
"And you say to them...Let's observe, let's think, let's discuss. They don't do it. Just, "is it in a peer reviewed paper or not?' That's their view of science.
I think it's pathetic.
They've gone into universities as bright young people, they come out of them brain dead! Not even knowing what science means."
https://twitter.com/alexandrosM/status/1487149659487301632?cxt=HHwWgMCr2Y2vtaMpAAAA
That's hilarious and probably not that uncommon.
No doubt that it's been one factor in the death of journalism.
People who come out with a journalism degree are probably the least qualified to practice journalism.
Film director Sam Fuller was a pretty successful crime reporter at 17 and he never came within spitting distance of a journalism degree.
Elon Musk even once said,
"I hate when people confuse education with intelligence. You can have a bachelor's degree and still be an idiot"
Of course you're obsessed with Hunter Biden. Pure nonsense. Let's just casually hand wave away a violent insurrection after an election where the exiting President tried to cling to power by any means possible.
You're about as credible as a flat earther.
Let's keep our eyes up here. Hunter Biden's verified content in the laptop(s) displays contempt for the rule of law, and documents some of the illegal activities of his kleoptomaniacal family. He's recently been quoted complaining that he has had to pay everyone else's bills in the family for years.
Hunter, his father, his Uncle Jim, and the rest of the gang have lined their own pockets for decades. Today Nancy Pelosi is ensuring that nobody ever forgets that average Americans viciously followed the invitations of capitol police to enter the capitol building and mostly stayed within the visitors' ropes. In a city where there is little to any bail for attempted murder, these violent sightseers carried no weapons, and have been jailed for over a year.
The only violence claimed was the death of a capitol hill police officer, who reported that evening that reports of his death had been greatly exaggerated. The only violence committed was shooting a single protester, Ashlee Babbit, for the crime of breaking a window.
Read Peter Schweitzer's books. He's a prize-winning investigative journalist, representing the New York Times when it was still a newspaper.
I can't endorse ad hominem attacks. But I certainly allow myself to enjoy one every now and then.
are we still apple only?
Android app (and live web listening) is coming in a few weeks. At that time you'll be able to call in and participate in Matt's live rooms. Until then, you can listen to published episodes and highlights from a computer or Android device via the web app. Catch all of Matt's episodes here: https://www.callin.com/show/tk-live-VOaYFhTeLH
Ok but I am a rich white lady
-snicker-
Android app (and live web listening) is coming in a few weeks. At that time you'll be able to call in and participate in Matt's live rooms. Until then, you can listen to published episodes and highlights from a computer or Android device via the web app. Catch all of Matt's episodes here: https://www.callin.com/show/tk-live-VOaYFhTeLH
Matt, this is was a great episode, and the Callin show has been quite enjoyable.
To respond to what you said at the end of the episode of people being sick of the censorship coverage: I, for one, think your devotion to this topic is important and necessary, and I don't think that a lot of your readers are sick of it. Many of us are as upset about this as you are, and we hope you'll continue to cover it.
MAUS is a classic, and 14 is just the right age to give adolescents the information that will form their lives.
Keep up the good work brother! The world is a better place since you have found a place to provide your honest expertise
Matt, in the Callin app there's a option to read an auto generated transcript of the show. Any way you could export that and start posting it here?
Strongly recommend everyone check out Dr. John Campbell's most recent YouTube posting on the withholding of vaccine medical data by Big Pharma. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDxkloJ-4kE. He cites a article that was just published in the British Medical Journal concerning this issue. https://www.bmj.com/content/376/bmj.o102
Campbell has been dillegently covering the science behind the pandemic since it's inception.
Also interesting is Medcram, also on YouTube.
It's a continuing ed program for medical professionals, but very understandable to non professionals. They go into great depth about the organic and molecular chemistry of virology.
Nothing establishes scientific credibility like a YouTube video by a well known covid misinformation spreader.
You may be thinking of some one else.
So, you support Big Pharma in NOT releasing their vaccine testing data? What's your thoughts that issue?
This thread is getting a bit scattered. It's important to keep all the elements of this issue in temporal and spacial context.
A pandemic formed. The outcome could have been globally catastrophic or it could have been nothing. In the face of quickly evolving uncertainties, those who were present enough to grasp the situation reacted the best they could using the worst case scenario as a base line. A reasonable course given the possibilities. And now, here we are critiquing events in the past through the lens of present knowledge. That's great and what we should be doing.
It's more or less how the scientific method works and how we empirically learn and move forward.
Absolutely big pharma should be transparent (ha ha like thats ever gonna happen- at least before the revolution) more ha ha.
But keep in mind how fast things were moving and what the stakes were. It amazese how many people I knew who died from covid. This is no time for self righteous rear view mirror ego jerking. Learn, develop better strategies and move on.
That's what we do.
Glad Dr John covered that article, very telling. Someone is finally bearing witness to the subject!!
The same day Woody Allen's book deal was quashed, I walked into the local Barnes and Noble and physically held a copy of Mein Kompf that was for sale. Also, the Apple only stuff is super irritating. Would very much like to join, but not so much that I would buy an Apple product.
Aren't there any apps not dependent on having apple?
I was just now looking for an android app. Kind of a bummer, this looks like a really cool event. Tbh though I expect if/when they release it, it will be rife with trackers and other malevolent forms of high tech surveillance. Generally speaking, fuck apps. I hope the web version is finished soon.
Matt, we are tired of hearing from “the intellectual dark web” on the topics of censorship, CRT, and all things righteous that the left usurped from the Church Lady crowd. I would love to hear an expert on critical thinking and philosophy break down what’s right and wrong about the new morality. And what both sides are missing in the face of collapse of the American empire.
Thanks for introducing me to Jonathan Haidt, but lose the “elders of Zion” conspiracy tone. No one is complaining about shit but you.
It constantly amazes me how this administration and it's minions work in the language of censorship. That's a non-starter for me, period. They determine that discussion on important policy decisions be curtailed with "the power that we have". Excuse me if I hear echoes of the Cultural Revolution.
Matt, when you say "Let's talk..." at 4:00 p.m. EST today what does that mean? Does this mean you talk, and I listen restrospectively on an archived version of this conversation presented on a future (meaning after 4 pm today)TK podcost archive link, Youtube link, or otherwise? If not, can you please give some instruction on how a subscriber, such as myself, with an android phone can call and actually "talk" on a live, interactive call offered to your subscribers? Or is there a link someone can provide that explains how to set this "Callin" application up on my phone? Thank you.
Android app (and live web listening) is coming in a few weeks. At that time you'll be able to call in and participate in Matt's live rooms. Until then, you can listen to published episodes and highlights from a computer or Android device via the web app. Catch all of Matt's episodes here: https://www.callin.com/show/tk-live-VOaYFhTeLH
"listen to published" episodes does not = participation.
I don't believe it is ethical to invite subscribers to a call in episode when they are not able to participate because they have not purchased a particular brand of expensive phone. Its unnecessarily discriminatory. It also seems like a bait and switch advertising from a subscription sales perspective. This wasn't disclosed at the time you offered a subscription to me. I am glad that you are making efforts to correct this, but until that time, I believe you should refrain from offering call-in participation segments. It's not illegal, per say, but it's just not right-- in my opinion.
It hasn't been addressed. Until it has, I have a right to express a compliant as a subscriber. Whether you approve, or not, is irrelevant.
How secure is Substack? Any chance they will bow to the censor freaks?
I wouldn't think so. The Substack business model requires open and honest writing to get people to subscribe. Since it's supported by reader money, not advertising, censors would find it difficult to shut down anyway.,
no, they will not
Main stream social media are silencing every single conservative, but relax help in on the way.
Help? Please elaborate… it’s starting to feel China ‘ish’ with the info grooming these days
i am a liberal, i have been silenced by the main stream social media, hence your statement is erroneous.
They could be silencing all the conservatives *and* some liberals too…
if a liberal is silencing is maybe not a liberal but mustlikely a conservative, instagram shoot down my 25k followers account because i said i dont need the vacccine because i have antibody
…which, to me, sounds like a pretty liberal position to hold. Seems these labels have become so distorted they are now pretty much meaningless.
you can't make that erroneous statement better. they don't silence ALL the conservatives, otherwise I would have no idea what they are saying. and believe me, I do. I read widely across political boundaries. Both sides are crazy now. only people like Matt are in the sane middle.
There are two Americas and it depends which America you belong to whether you are a liberal or a conservative.
If you are a neoliberal the government of the people by the people and for the people is your enemy. If the government is your enemy you are NOT a conservative
If you are a liberal your government belongs to you and serves your interest.
America is deciding on whether it is a neoliberal democracy or a liberal democracy while Rome is burning.
You are still thinking in the fake conservitive/liberal construct. Everyone who deviates from the mainstream "moderate" view is being censored. It just seems like your side is more censored due to confirmation bias.
I always quite liked “moderate” views. But I genuinely don’t know at this point where, if anywhere, I stand on any putative political spectrum. I suppose I tend to think that “the right” comes in for more censorship these days, but half the time it’s actually liberals, or what I would call liberals, being mobbed by self-described liberals who look more like tricoteuses to me. The other half of the time, the culture war looks to me like a self-reinforcing dance of bad-faith actors, where the critical race crowd need the actual racist crazy folk to justify their own craziness — and vice versa — so that the more bile is emitted by the Right, the further the Left feels entitled to go in spouting its bilge, bilge which drives more people away from the centre and towards the fringes, thereby justifying more bile, more bilge… and so it goes on… repeat until there is nothing left but a war of all against all.
The political spectrum is an artificial construct designed to shoehorn everyone into two superficially different political parties who bicker over only the culture wars.
The cultural and political realignment going on will place you next to people you never envisioned knowing, and at odds with people you’ve known forever. It will foment emotional responses you may not be prepared for.
The seas are stormy, the ride is rough, but here we are.
So be it.
if mein stream media silence you is maybe because you think as conservative not like the left because they are silencing everyone speak agains their socialist agenda
I don't believe they target conservative any more than liberal. It seems to me that they are targeting anyone that speaks counter to the official narratives. Mostly they tend to be freedom oriented people from the right and left.
It’s the “Google agenda” that has trickled down to all of the other platforms because of their influence and internet supremacy. (Personal belief)
well, mein herr. I am a democratic socialist; that is not why i have been censored. The woke brigade are crazy, so are the Qanon people. They are mirror images of each other. The primary and largest socialist (actually communist) organization in the United States? The military. EVERYTHING is provided to them, even insurance for the military vehicles they drive, their clothing, their food, their medical care. Not sure where people go such a strange avoidance to the maintenance of public infrastructure and caring for the public good to the extent they label it socialism. OH, right, the conservative groups to want to privatize everything. How's that unrestrained corporate behavior working out for the country?
What socialist agenda?
There’s only one party banning books. Seriously. Hypocrisy and twisted narrative you bring is far from credible.
I suppose that’s fine and dandy because you’re now an opinion piece creator. No correlation to journalist whatsoever.
One of the greatest parts of the Constitution forces the powerful to hold elections every two years. Those running on a pro-censorship, pro-mandate, pro-CRT platform/tweets/interviews will I predict find it more than normally difficult to survive.
Regarding Maus, different areas of the country will have different levels of what parents find acceptable. Any of those 8th graders can easily get a copy of Maus overnighted from Amazon if they or their parents find it that important. It's not like the book was banned in the functional sense that it's very difficult to acquire, unlike many books actually banned by Amazon. The left has some truly pathetic displays of what-aboutism when it comes to cancel culture. FFS, the on-goings of the McMinn County, TN schoolboard is now national news? This reminds me of 2013 era rage-bait when HuffPo and Slate would hyperventilate over every offensive tweet by some dogcatcher in Bucksnort, Arkansas.
Why don't you put the recording on Substack as a pod ep? Their web payer is kinda crap.
Is there a technical reason? A legal one? Or a Bartleby reason (you prefer not to but won't say why)?
If the problem is not having time, I'll organize to transfer the audio to something that can be published in RSS and listed in the various pod apps (Spotify, Apple, PocketCasts, etc.)
Canadian convoy , hey our apologies for getting so pissed offed, but if you please? have a look why. https://youtu.be/CzrjWjckNpA?t=82
Freedom of thought can trump freedom of speech almost every time
Have a nice day
Hmm... I'll probably introduce my kid to stuff as early as possible.
Only question is what's first: MAUS, or Preacher?
Decisions, decisions.
Keep up the fight! I really enjoyed your hard-hitting article. We have to make sure a culture of free speech, free inquiry, and debate is protected at Substack.
Why Callin? I think you'd get a larger turnout on Twitter Spaces.
You don't counter with saying: "NN lies!". You counter with facts, logic and reasoned debate.
Screeching "NN lies!", calling for censorship, gag orders, and removal of any material containing errors is not the right way to go about things.
If NN claims that, well let's say a new untried medical treatment can have dangerous side effects, the correct way to counter is to show the reseacrh, show the tests (not just alleged results), and show the decision making process of the regulatory body complete with any bias or conflict of interest in said body.
If you instead cover up, double down, and clamp shut everything and everyone asking questions or making challenges? Well, you've pretty much proven that there's something wrong in the first place, haven't you?
The old adage of applying the same logic as when buying a used car holds true here as well - would anyone buy let alone drive a used car they weren't allowed to check out first?
No, we wouldn't.
Wrong thinkers or lie spreaders? There's a difference. Especially when the result of the lie could be death. Rebranding liars doesn't make the outcome of their lies any more palatable.
Causing harm should have consequences.
Congrats. Your posts are self-evidently bullshit.
"Results of the lie could..."
"...outcome of their lies..."
"Causing harm..."
But you said it wasn't for sure their lies would cause harm.
Which is it?
Crap so much for freedom of speach, at this point I’d like to have freedom of thought! Any movement is won with non-violence, lets not make them appear to be roght….stay calm & carry-on
My sense is that plenty of the information given on Joe Rogan is neither DIS nor MIS, it’s interesting that you didn’t push back a little bit more on that when you were asked. It seemed like a leading question…
Serious catastrophizing… “Corporations have an urgent obligation to drive change through social procurement. The future of the planet is at stake.”
I have been thinking a lot about Irving Layton 1912-2006 and whether in a hundred years he might be considered along with Milton as English's great poets. There is nothing so painful as a Socratic poet.
Layton wrote: "Let's stop talking about the Holocaust, We don't want to give them any ideas."
Here in Quebec I have two governments who are usually locked in opposition telling me the exact same thing.
This is a health issue not a political issue and it is nice to be able to trust our governments.
It's all getting worrying!
https://nakedemperor.substack.com/