The social media divide means audiences are no longer obsessing about the same video outrages. Episode 1: the arrest of ChongLy Thao versus the Cities Church
NBC, ABC, CBS, Reuters, USA Today, AP, BBC, NYT etc spent 2021-2024 denying that the Biden Administration had instituted de facto open borders, that the country had been flooded by millions of unvetted unknown strangers, and claimed that even if some of these masses included criminals and gangbangers, this was a small price to pay for compassion and "our values" (the foremost of which is low-wage labor), and only bigots notice anyway.
Now suddenly NBC, ABC, CBS, Reuters, USA Today, AP, BBC, NYT etc are laser-focused on the migrants they spent years ignoring, cataloging every ICE fuckup and every sob story of a "local man" and his kids who are being sent home, making sure to omit whatever charges he may be facing, and absolutely making sure to omit that 1) there are thousands of criminals here with no papers, and any country would arrest and deport them; 2) they've spent years constantly crowing about Our Democracy™ yet the current Prez, however repulsive, ran and won on this issue and thus is actually fulfilling a campaign promise, however crudely and crassly; and 3) if they are opposed to federal immigration law, Our Democracy™ should run on this, win and change the law.
But the biggest question I have for the owners, editors and mouthpieces of NBC, ABC, CBS, Reuters, USA Today, AP, BBC, NYT etc: how many migrants are you currently housing or sponsoring? How many of your vacation homes and spare bedrooms sit empty while you cry for the plight of the undocumented? How many members of your families have been hurt or worse by an illegal alien criminal?
Our MSM overclass believes only in their divine right to outsource all the costs and social rot, while privatizing all profits and hogging all virtue. Just don't try to make me believe they give a shit about any immigrants, legal or otherwise, unless they're serving them food or scrubbing their toilets. They only want us all to hate and fight each other, for their social and financial benefit. Social collapse is now their newest profit stream!
I wish it was made unavoidably clear that if authorities cooperated with ICE detainers that none of this would be necessary or happening. I would like someone to do a comparison study of ICE activity in a non-sanctuary state vs a "sanctuary" state (quotation marks due to the fact that it is against federal law to provide this so called sanctuary). I live in one of these states and I am appalled at some of the cretins that have been sent off into the ether of our society but it is par for the course in this place.
If that's the way things went down there wouldn't be the collateral damage of regular illegal aliens being swept up in the course of trying to find the criminals, the fact of their illegal presence itself a crime sufficient to warrant arrest.
tom homan during obama = Executive Associate Director for Enforcement and Removal Operations (ERO) (the deportation branch) for Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) and receiving a Presidential Rank Award from President Obama in 2015 for his service, even as ICE carried out record deportations under that administration.
I read that deportations in 2025 were projected at 600 thousand. A fraction of the annual pace in the Clinton and Bush administrations. And still less than the first 5-years of the Obama administration.
Similarly or at least analogously, as I've posted elsewhere, I went to grad school in MN. Arrived very liberal, left pretty conservative.
Protesting is a cottage industry in Minnesota. The "issue" is essentially irrelevant, the protest is the goal.
The issue only serves as a pretext for having a protest.
It's quite annoying as valid issues are used as tools by silly, insecure, self-centered clowns to secure virtue-signaling rights and photo-ops.
Real change takes work. Work and persistence. Not, "Let's get together and get rowdy and scream" kind of fun.
Which is why, if you check photos from the 1960s, 1970s, 1980s, 1990s, 2000s, 2010s and today the people you see at protests are largely the same age bracket.
Granted the "overton age window" (so to speak) has grown over the years as people try to relive their youth and seek relevance [sic!!!] but I'd wager that the 90th percentile (i.e., such that 90% are that age or younger) is in the late 20s. There are definitely more people in their 30s and older at these protests than in the past but the people 35 and older are really (I think) just looking for something to do and some way to feel "relevant" [again, 'sic'].
Many interviews over the last 20 years have illustrated (though can't claim statistical significance of course) that lots of these people...maybe most...really have a poor understanding of the "issue" they claim to feel so passionate about.
Is there a reason Blue cities are pulling their state and local law enforcement from working with ICE? Yes, it directly interferes in the flow of valuable information. It creates great optics as it will cause more errors from ICE as they have to ask for ID when local enforcement would normally give them this information. State and local LE usually know where criminals reside. Tom Homan before taking charge asked for cooperation because it would allow them to focus on criminal illegal immigrants. State and local law enforcement know a lot more information and it slows down ICE operations. This was deliberate and the optics are working in their favor.
I also appreciated Matt's calling attention to the fact that we consumers of news are by no means blameless. The internet provides many and diverse sources and opinions. It is up to us, however frustrating, to understand that reality is complicated. Each of us fills his own plate from an endless buffet of healthy and unhealthy options.
An interesting thing I keep wondering about, is when the wind might change. Like, the precariot made of illegal immigrants right now drives the MSN overclass' Ubers and lifts, serves their food, scrubs their floors, etc... . If hypothetically this precariot is suddenly replaced by even cheaper robot labor, how fast will the MSN overclass turn on the immigrants the moment they are no longer a useful service tool for them? Those rapes and murders "were fine" to them as long as scrubbing floors could be made as cheeply as possible, but when that is no longer the case how will they behave?
Every illegal they pick up in Minnesota is one less criminal they can protect, to give them credentials to vote and teach them how to defraud the American people while grifting off the fumes of corruption.
They will definitely discard once they've served their purpose. Just like in the documentary "Wild Country" when the cult brought in all the homeless people so they could vote and then bussed them right out once some of them became too much to deal with.
But then wouldn’t the robots be declared citizens (or whatever) with rights and salary requirements, regular maintenance and restrictions on replacing them when they are no longer the “new” model? I know it sounds crazy but nothing surprises me anymore.
Maybe. I would bet it will be something more like the “three fifths compromise” where slaves counted as three fifths of a person for allocating congressmen, but still couldn't participate in the political process at all. The robots will get whatever maximizes their owners but minimizes themselves.
And, where was all the coverage when Obama who deported over 3 million “illegal “ immigrants while president. Where were the protestors then? This is all horse shit. These people don’t give a rats ass about the immigrants. This is all about orange man bad!
I didn't believe the "Hmong man" story in the first place. Police came with a warrant looking for sex offenders (not ICE jurisdiction) with ICE in tow, the family refused to open and co-operate, police broke the door and took this man, fingerprinted him, figured out it wasn't him and returned home. Sounds about right. The rest is flaff and hysteria. I don't believe they wouldn't have a warrant for sex offenders, but how do you show it to those who won't talk with you?
UPDATE: I take it back, police can enter without warrant a dwelling of sex offenders on parole or probation for periodic checks. Unless this family moved in a month ago, it should be the sex offender current address, not a mess up. Which begs a question about their relation to the family. If this man was harboring criminals from ICE, refusing to open the door and making noise, so they can escape, ICE had the right to arrest him. They can't deport a citizen but they can charge him with an immigration crime such as harboring. If it were an honest mess up, then answering to police "we moved in a month ago, such and such don't live here anymore" would've been sufficient.
«"our values" (the foremost of which is low-wage labor)»
Actually it is higher property prices! Mass immigration is tenant+worker quantitative easing, designed to put huge pressure on housing and jobs.
Many "conservatives" that oppose mass immigration would change opinion quickly if stopping it meant that their house price would be cut by 50% (and the cost of their gardening, cleaning, delivering, nursing, would go up by 50%).
That is irrelevant: it greatly increases demand for housing, whether rental or owned, and boost considerably property prices. There was a paper by G. Mankiw in the 1990s saying that unless things changed the aging of the baby boomers and the smaller generations after them would result in a collapse of house prices as the number of renters and first house buyers shrank, and after a decade another paper came out showing that immigration had more than compensated for the shrinking of the native citizen population greatly boosting house prices instead.
«yields massive welfare and rent subsidies.»
If you really think that after Clinton's "end of welfare as we know it" and several republican administrations and majorities being ever meaner on welfare (except to corporations) there is still massive money to make by going on welfare and getting rent subsidies you should try that option and see how much you enjoy it :-).
Actually the vast majority of immigrants are illegals and they pay Social Security contributions but cannot collect any benefits. Illegal immigrants have much delayed the budget issues with Social Security.
A market is determined by supply and demand. In my years, I have seen experts prove to be idiots far more often than being prescient. G, Mankiw is no exception.
Supply of new homes has lagged demand consistently for many decades. County and state overregulation and environmental alarmists have driven up building costs by 15%. Affordability is an issue affecting both supply and demand. When you add in reckless spending by Congress and inept Federal Reserve leadership that utterly failed at assessing bank mortgage risks (Bernanke) and incompetence at fighting inflation (Powell), the financial risks home builders are willing to take are tempered. Bottom line any thoughts of over building or significant demand destruction leading to large price adjustments are low probability scenarios.
i'll meet u in the middle...higher property valuations, higher stock prices, AND lower wages. The West has an unquenchable thirst for cheap labor, this is why the MSM etc fetishize the "migrant community".
I didn’t see my home prices or my household services does read with millions of immigrants entering the country. On the contrary, I saw just the opposite happen.
> a former ACLU legal director, who declared the FACE Act should not apply, provided Cities Church members were not “barred from taking Communion or some other religious activity.” The ACLU has been silent on whether or not the Cities Church action constitutes protected First Amendment speech.
I formerly had a great deal of respect for the ACLU. Now I know, to my chagrin, that the right-wingers were right to mock the ACLU as "the American Criminal Liberties Union."
So this (granted, former) ACLU legal director wants to split hairs by claiming that interrupting the taking of Communion might violate FACE, but that interrupting a pastor's sermon to his flock does not?
And didn't Minnesota's Attorney General Keith Ellison want the DOJ to prosecute people under FACE for filming *outside* Muslim masjids?
It's always Two Tier "Justice" with the Left, it's never what's done but always who is doing it, that determines what is or isn't legal for the Left.
As for Thao, ICE needs to show better discipline and restraint. It's illegal and embarrassing when they fail to get warrants, break down doors, arrest the wrong people in their underwear. Do the job, but do it professionally and legally.
Trump was elected to *end* the chaos and the misuse of Federal authority.
Its sad because that wasn't always the case. The ACLU's abrupt change around 2017-ish from their previously non-partison position to one radically partison (while more sinisterly putting up and maintaining a decent veneer of pretending to be non-partison) was a shockingly abrupt and toxic rug-pull on a once great institution.
Because it is effective? Most Americans will not go along with overt revolution/communism/socialism. But, the constant changing of the subject is disruptive and all boils down to the same goals I think. Although, I am not sure that there is an end goal beyond power and "out with the old order".
Movements and their institutions never just go away because they have won. Just look how the gay rights movement turned into the normalization of transsexuality and sex rejecting procedures for profit (while at the same time "there is no sexed reality").
The kids are useful idiots - more like the Chinese Red Guard than the actual Civil Rights generation in MLK's time. They do want to feel good about themselves though.
It became "hate speech", "micro-aggressions", Identity politics....
not at all the dream of people being viewed for their character instead of how they look.
I think that she threw the parents who named her Kate and raised her under the bus which is a thing now. She sounds like she's on Helium with the testosterone drugging. She was a total idiot before the Supreme Court.
Such people need real mental health help - not the woke videos about mental health our kids are shown at school.
...what difference time makes ... AG Ellison from a press release from his office (April 24, 2020) wrote ...
"“It’s my job to help all Minnesotans live with dignity and respect. Living with dignity and respect looks like being able to go to any public place you choose, including your house of worship, without the fear or threat that you’ll be harassed, intimidated, or persecuted for who you are or whom you pray to. I’m defending the constitutionality of our law that protects Minnesotans of all faiths and backgrounds from that kind of harassment. Minnesotans want everyone to live with the same dignity and respect that they want for themselves.”"
This was a statement made about the videoing *outside* the Dar Al-Farooq Islamic Center ...
With regards to Thao, it's more than embarrassing-- his constitutional rights were violated by ICE. Every single conservative and libertarian should be taking this transgression seriously. Based on the details in Matt's writeup, this was no case of mistaken identity, just a monumental screwup by hotheaded agents. The officers who did this should be suspended from their duties while they undergo additional training. Additionally, Thao deserves a full apology from ICE along with financial compensation for damage to his home.
According to Thao's family, at least one Laotian sex offender had lived in the house previously. It is also notoriously true that members of any distinct ethnic group look "the same” to other ethnic groups in a hurry. Under the circumstances, mistaken identity was certainly possible.
That is no excuse, however, for the thuggish and outrageous behavior of ICE against a half-clothed and defenseless elderly man. It was an equally thoughtless, but far more dangerous and aggressive version of TSA's absurd patdown of an old lady at the airport.
i'm left with the thought that ICE and TSA security may not represent the beauty and chivalry of the law enforcement community.
Read Coffee and Covid for why barging into private property to loudly protest is not protected. Scream what you want in the street but you can’t force your way into someone’s home or place of worship with impunity according to Childers.
Instead of ending it he seems to be expanding it. Most of us fully support targeted criminal removals. I have talked myself into being ok with self-supporting tax-paying alien presence because lawful deportation of such huge numbers seems impossible, but I remain adamantly against any pathway whatsoever to voting and citizenship short of honorable military service.
Meanwhile, over time, E verify and stiff penalties to employers should largely take care of the problem. We,d also need to rethink public benefit incentive. Neither party seems interested so I,m not holding my breath.
Even if the "undocumented" aren't voting (and some *are* voting), they are counted in the Census for apportioning congressional districts and electoral votes.
This gives Democrats more seats and more power, which they use to bring in more immigrants.
Yes, I agree that it is an underhanded way to apportion the House. The fact remains that all of Biden,s imports via legal ports of entrance are in fact “legally present." The problem is a real tangle.
The US is the archetypal whore with a heart of gold. Our government has a hard time with "NO!" and it affects/infects social policy across the board. It and fraud are the main reasons American healthcare is such a mess.
It almost seems like a kind of vicarious empathy. Government workers and liberal supporters take spiritual sustenance from distributing other peoples' money.
I do agree somewhat with your comment regarding ICE being a bit more respectful, but then I’m reminded if my law enforcement friends that say eventually enough is enough . They don’t get respected
Professionalism and discipline garner respect. Professionalism includes being calm, appropriate, restrained, and polite when interacting with the public.
That's what distinguishes a police force from a gang or a mob.
LE officers have become a distinct social caste that is despised by most of the political actors today. "ACAB" comes naturally to most college educated youth, the attitude is pervasive in academia.
The only real positive portrayal of police in media is a celebration of rogue cops that break all of the rules, getting the bad guy after a car chase and public gunfight.
The more society at large deplores LE the more isolated and insulated cops become. Turn up the pressure, like in Minneapolis, and bad stuff is bound to happen.
Agree, but if you deport 600 thousand, how many encounters does that add up to? A million or more? Mistakes happen and they should be actively managed to positive outcomes. On a percentage basis the error rate is?
I still get fundraising pleas in the mail—TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP STOP TRUMP. I tear them into little pieces except the fill out money form—that I write “when pigs fly” on—then send it all back to them in the postpaid envelope. I regret even that amount of time engaged in this action. Covid cured me of the ACLU for good.
I have not. I did see a story which claims that ICE internally circulated a secret memo telling agents that they can forcibly enter homes with only an administrative warrant.
That's very disturbing, both the 4th Amendment violation, and the secrecy: supposedly, ICE agents were allowed to read but not retain the memo, and oere told not to speak publicly about it.
I very much want to see ICE deport illegals, but that needs to be hone within the Constitution, not by going around it.
agree of course, but I wish they would put out their side of it. For all anyone knows the man refused to change clothes or provide proof of who he was. It makes sense if it is true that the people they were looking for lived there too.
I think that is why Tom Homan has gone to Minnesota. He was a man honored by President Obama and now works for President Trump. I think Noem wasn't a great pick for Trump. I have heard him grumbling about her. She and Bovino were out there so quick with rebuttal, that I don't think all the information had been gathered, making claims I'm not sure they could substantiate.
Protestant churches generally don't take communion and are allergic to inherited ritual. Sounds like the ACLU is arguing that Protestant service is not actually a religious activity.
Interesting, the Protestant churches I grew up in emphasized individual revelation over communal ritual, and insisted that communion is only a metaphorical memorial, not a supernatural mystery.
Apparently this comes from the Anabaptist tradition, which many Evangelical churches resemble, although I would expect a huge proportion of exception due to the disorganized intellectual lineage inherent to being "non-denominational".
Lutheran and Calvinist churches and their progeny apparently generally do take communion. There are flavors of evangelical churches originating from all three branches. I'm sure there are regional patterns as well.
Interesting. What is mainline? I'm Orthodox now, but grew up in Presbyterian, Methodist, and Calvary Chapel churches and all the non-denominational churches my family members currently go to only do communion in special circumstances like an optional Wednesday service once a month.
Don Lemon and his "protesters" have nothing to worry about. FIRE will come to their rescue. These protesters were exercising their First Amendment right of free speech. The people in the church were only exercising their First Amendment right of religion. Clearly, speech is the only civil liberty worth fighting for since that's the only civil liberty FIRE defends.
Of course the church's 1A right to worship is just as important as liberals 1A right to protest. My point is that FIRE is selective in their defense of civil liberties, they only defend speech and ignore all other civil liberties.
I think FIRE has taken both sides of the free speech issue, both left and right. Therefore they seem balanced. It's just that by far, most of the censoring has come from the left. I don't think in this case they would support the protesters in the church, because this mob invaded private property. This was not a public sidewalk they could protest on legally.
I agree with you on the free speech issue. Once again, my point is that FIRE is selective in their defense of civil liberties, they only defend speech and ignore all other civil liberties.
I find it very ironic that FIRE would defend the protesters freedom of speech rights in this case but not the church's freedom of religion rights.
From their website: "The Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression's mission is to defend and sustain the individual rights of all Americans to free speech and free thought — the most essential qualities of liberty."
So, they're not "ignor[ing] all other civil liberties." Their mission focus is speech/expression.
Why can’t we walk and chew gum at the same time. The treatment of the Hmong man was bad. Apologies should be made. The church thing? How could anyone justify this? Especially public officials. Sick.
in the grand scheme, ok yeah it would sucked to be that guy or the people at the church. bottom line a bunch of people were incommoded just like hundreds of thousands each day and these two instances were selected for social media propaganda. when someone wants me to care about something and they use mass psychosis tactics, I try to do the opposite out of the principle of not rewarding attempts at manipulation.
Good reply. Have been thinking just last night and this morning about how we allow ourselves to be captured by these incidents that in the big scheme of things are not THAT important. Not making out that they don’t matter. They do. But compared to the Pedo’s abusing children? Really? Why can’t we channel the rage towards them? Groups like 764 hardly get a mention. Why?😕
"Keith Ellison declared the protests are protected, saying “none of us are immune to the voice of the public,” to which one user replied, “You heard him. We can now protest in Somali mosques for stealing our money.”
Someone needs to suggest that to Keith Ellison's face.
I completely support free speech and the right to protest.
But it seems to me that our courts and police meed to more vigorously enforce trespassing, assault, and harassment. If leftist mobs are free perpetrate these crimes under the umbrella of an unlimited right to 'protest', this could escalate very badly.
Another example:
Anti-ICE protesters make noise 24/7 at hotels, leading hotels to evict guests working for ICE.
Free speech?
OK, now Pro-ICE protesters go to the *same* hotel, and make noise 24/7, refusing to stop until hotel allows ICE back in.
Free speech, right?
Is this to be the new normal?
There is a difference between free speech, and intimidation tactics, assault, tresspassing, interfering with law enforcement operations, etc.
Leftist mobs are inflaming tensions, with tacit approval and asymmetrical enforcement of Democratic government, based on politics.
The burning down of the Minneapolis police station in 2020 was terrorist type behavior, but was received calmly on CNN as "firey but mostly peaceful" protest. If that is not an example of asymmetric response depending upon politics, I dont know what is. You could not be sending a clearer message to the public: "No criminal act - no matter how severe - committed by the left, should be responded to with alarm".
Did you notice that the main stream media was rightfully appaled at the treatment of Chongly Thao, but they seemed to endorse the interruption of worship service in the Chrisitan Church including insults of parishioners. That is also appaling yet it is a non-story to the NYT, WaPo etc.
Yes. Why cannot more of us understand that ICE both has a legitimate mandate and is at times alarmingly careless over its execution, that ChongLy Thao was appallingly treated, that Renee Good should not be dead but contributed significantly to that outcome for herself, that screaming at parishioners during their worship is despicable, shooting fish in a barrel?
All these things are true at the same time. That, apparently, is too much for the ideological brain to grasp. But those of us without those blinders can see it pretty clearly.
I think more of us understand this than we think. We're not on the news. We just need to vote more wisely. That's how these (self described) knuckleheads got in office!
The problem is when any remotely wise-tangential options have been carefully weeded out of our options before voting starts, as with the past three general elections. Really since well before.
30-plus years ago I became resigned to the fact that the Democrats I voted for in primaries never made it to the ballot. Thereafter, I became independent and cannot vote in primaries at all.
In 2016, I dreamt of a Paul / Sanders choice (this was before Sanders sold out by performing anilingus on Hillary Clinton on screen before the nation). We got Trump / Clinton.
It's true. I live in a blue state, and the quality of the Republican candidates has become so poor. It's clear they've given up hope to actually win. Voters suffer, as does our government, when there isn't real competition and choice.
Maine, where I now live, tends to choose moderates as a rule. I don't think anyone could reasonably call Senator Collins a die hard MAGA, nor is Representative Golden hard-woke, though the blue people downstate gave us Janet Mills, who thought keeping Walmart open during COVID merited doing, while churches might not even hold outdoor services across the street, and thinks it essential to expose our schoolgirls to injury via mandatory inclusion of trans people with male hormones, size and intact equipment.
I live in a pretty reliable Republican electoral district, fortunately.
A lot has to do with campaign money. I lived in WA worked as a precinct treasurer as a Republican PCO. I dealt with all their campaign filings and had access to the Democrat campaign filings. I was amazed by all the large-dollar contributions from Indian tribes, Unions, high-tech companies, and PACs. Generally, they had more than a 5:1 advantage. Accomplished individuals are not enthusiastic about spending a year of their life in a difficult situation.
It lives in the law, medicine, in the Latin liturgy of the Roman Catholic Church (St. Patrick's, in New Orleans' central business/warehouse district, has special dispensation to offer a Latin Mass every Sunday, in the belief that Catholic sailors from round the globe can thus hear, if not their country's native language, at least the native language of their faith), and in perhaps some old and recalcitrant educational institutions.
Latin also lives in the minds of those, like me, who find language endlessly interesting.
I suspect the failings of the public school system are becoming evident. When education is indoctrination rather than teaching critical thinking skills, the population starts to resemble sheep.
National education scores have been in decline for 40 years. Returning responsibility back to the states and counties may improve the situation.
I am 67, and would think shame on myself to retain so adolescent a mindset, as popular as it has become among those who are old enough to know better.
But, if youth is indeed rather wasted on the young, it the more behooves those of us who have passed that stage to ensure the opportunity for maturity is not equally wasted on us.
But we are the country of eternal children. A country of Peter Pans. Watching Renee Good mocking LEO or loud protesters invading the church I can’t help thinking that these folks are stuck in their teenage rebellion forever. Not to say that everything is fine on the right side of the divide.
I am slightly older than you. As much as I try to stay young at heart, I noticed that my age is beginning to manifest itself when common sense influences my reaction more and more. Though the weight of life experience and knowledge does not stop my gray-haired and wrinkled neighbors from throwing tantrums -
I live in what is probably one of the most liberal hoods in the country. Moderation has definitely fell out of fashion. If it was ever popular at all.
of course. I have a healthy respect for law enforcement, but also realize the job can attrack a certain kind of person prone to commit abuses. same with teachers. yeah, you need them, but that position can attract pedos, hence all the backgroumd check stuff they have. and politicians. natural magnet for psychopaths. of couse, we dont have any system in place for them except elections, which the psycho is adept at navigating.
Churches were deemed non essential during Covid and shut down. That ass hat should try that kind of protest in a Catholic Church, where many kids and families of all races and social economics are present.
Or in the Midwest or south, where zillions of attendees carry firearms to defend their freedoms and their lives from the attacks seen daily in Africa and Europe.
Are we not supposed to notice that if Minneapolis cooperated with ICE and had turned over the criminals being sought, the Hmong man would have never been disturbed in a case of mistaken identity?
Cops go through the wrong door sometimes. It can’t just be forgotten, but it isn’t like they shot that guy, which has happened a few times. A very, very few times.
[Edited: after seeing Matt’s comment (I was not aware he had written this piece or I would have been nicer…) I was arguing across models as we used to say. His point about the warrant being needed was directed at the forced entry(& correct). I was looking at it as a requirement for a detainer or arrest (where a judicial warrant is NOT needed). I hope Matt accepts my apology (reading comprehension is non-negotiable for me hence my Mea culpa). I’m going back through & editing this comment without noting my corrections because of the limits of this app or my skill in using it. Just so you know, there would be a ton of redlining. I address his valid critique of the warrantless breaking in of Thao’s door in ponderous detail in 2 responses to his reply to me; if you are interested in the topic of ICE authority, warrants & the Constitution, & my hopelessly impractical proposed solution you can find my replies to Matt’s replies below.]
ICE agents operate as an element of administrative due process, part of the Executive, not Judicial branch. They are not under the jurisdiction of Article 3 courts but rather the immigration courts established under Title 8 of the USC. ICE agents do not need or serve Art 3 judicial warrants to make public arrests or detainers. They are authorized by Congress to detain & remove illegal aliens lawfully under Final Orders of Removal (issued by an administrative Immigration Judge or IJ, or an order from the Board of Immigration Appeals or BIA), a Warrant of Removal/Deportation (Form I-205) signed by a DHS/ICE official or the USAG, as well as an Administrative Arrest Warrant (Form I-200), Expedited Removal Order, or Reinstated Removal Order also issued by a DHS official or IJ. ICE agents may also detail illegal aliens based on a Record of Deportable/Inadmissible Alien (Form I-213; an administrative form), Criminal Conviction Records establishing removability, or IDENT/biometric match tied to DHS immigration records. None of these require an Art 3 judge to sign anything, especially a judicial warrant.
They may also go to a suspect’s domicile to question & detain them but cannot force entry without exigent circumstances or a judicial warrant.
ICE may also accept custody of an illegal alien from a holding facility run by state or local authorities using a Form I-247A, the ICE immigration detainer form (“Immigration Detainer – Notice of Action”).
This last is the linchpin of the current brouhaha in Minneapolis & elsewhere. An “ICE detainer” simply asks local authorities to hold a suspect already arrested for some other state or local crime & wanted by ICE for a separate immigration violation for 48 hours allowing for a safe & easy transfer of custody. The problem is that “sanctuary” locales prohibit their LEOs holding wanted illegal aliens to turn over to ICE, so they end up back on the street necessitating ICE searching them out, going to their homes or places of work. Rather than a quiet, safe, peaceful transfer in a county jail, officers must put their lives in jeopardy to pick up people outside in uncontrolled environments. There, anti-ICE agitators (who have no idea if the person ICE seeks is a Colombian drug lord or child sex abuser or drunk driver) put themselves in the position of being arrested or worse violating the law interfering with government law enforcement activities.
Looking for people outside of jail also greatly increases the likelihood others will be caught up in the net. If Juan, released with no cash bail pending his trial for sex trafficking, is looked for at his last known address, where Mario & Julio who are also in the US illegally are hanging with him, they will be detained & deported, too. Had Juan been transferred at the lockup, Mario & Julio might have lived in the US months or years longer.
As far as Thao’s residence, it helps explain why ICE went there that one of the actual suspects used to live there. It is unclear how long ago the actual target moved out AFAIK.
So I could have written the sentence better, but the issue was the forced entry into the home, for which they do need a warrant, unless they claimed exigent circumstances, and I didn’t hear that. The family claimed the agents entered “without presenting a warrant” and the public releases from the DHS didn’t address the issue.
Obviously ICE does not need warrants to detain illegal/undocumented immigrants, but it can’t be breaking doors down of private residences, can it? It sounds like this is an area of expertise for you, but I covered a lot of these cases in the past and always understood that a warrant was needed for an entry. Is that not right?
I think the intensity over this incident is misplaced.
1. Some ICE captures will go wrong or not the way we’d like.
2. The number of times this happens will be in proportion to how many captures are necessary.
3. The level of upset should be proportional to the number of times this happens NOT each and every time.
Now, why is this going to occur more times than we would like to see? Why are so many ICE captures necessary? Unless you live in a world where perfection is the norm problems will occur but the hand-wringing should be proportional i.e. reality based.
Reduce the number of bad ICE events? Rid expulsion of criminals or don’t allow uncontrolled entry into the country in the first place. Take your pick.
Meanwhile, previous Democrat regimes still enforced, deported, put kids in cages, etc. more than Trump from what I can tell. Yet they face virtually zero criticism, even from within their own ranks, because the red and blue bases are fucking cults.
Matt, the fact that you continue to engage in public dialogue is one of the reasons we trust you so much. That, and this feeling that you would never willingly or knowingly lie to us. You are a classic journalist—polite, careful with your words, but utterly relentless in pursuit of information.
If I hadn’t had the gift to be raised by a woman of such character with a journalism degree I might have seen things differently. She embarrassed me more than once in public because she sensed exaggeration or deception. It didn’t matter who it was or how high their rank. She was reasonable but in the pursuit of information she was the embodiment of this Shakespeare quote “Though she be but little, she is fierce.” Thank you for what you are doing, Matt, you’re really one of kind.
God, I hate writing something lengthy here only to lose it all with an accidental swipe on my phone. Ah, well. Starting over…
Matt - You’re right that I missed your focus on the actual break-in; I was more focused on the legality of detainer & removal in general absent an Art 3 arrest warrant. I also didn’t realize you, Matt, were writing this; you were not listed by name as the writer when I saw it.
I think you are probably the finest investigative reporter out there today & in no way are you a purveyor of misinformation. I sincerely apologize for my misunderstanding. I rely on you for the investigative reporting few do, especially without a partisan agenda (although I’m not sanguine about you accepting that small jet from Qatar… 😁). I will edit (if possible) my prior comment to clarify this & refer to this apology & clarification.
My focus was trying to correct the rampant misinformation that others spread or nod along with (especially on social media) concerning ICE powers & documents legally needed to lawfully detain someone. I was thinking detainee warrant per se, while you, Matt, were writing more about the forced unconsented entry. I’m not as concerned about the claims Thao was taken outside with just a child’s blanket in bitter cold. Had this been a police felony arrest, under similar circumstances a suspect might well have been treated the same way without civil exposure. Often the courts look at such things as de minimus intrusions on rights (fact dependent, as all of this is).
The nonconsensual breaking in to his home is another matter.
Here’s the crux of the entry situation as I see it. Forgive me in advance for another ponderous discussion, but there is a significant conflict between constitutional theory, SCOTUS case law, IRL immigration enforcement, & judicial resources.
Absent exigent circumstances (which I don’t think we have enough information at present to conclusively evaluate), breaking down Thao’s door was a violation of his 4A rights.
Does he have a civil cause of action against the agents individually? Yes, under Bivens v. Six Unknown Federal Narcotics Agents, 403 U.S. 388 (1971)
“That damages may be obtained for injuries consequent upon a violation of the Fourth Amendment by federal officials should hardly seem a surprising proposition. Historically, damages have been regarded as the ordinary remedy for an invasion of personal interests in liberty.” (Id. at 395.)
So what else is there to say? As Paul Harvey used to say, “& now, for the rest of the story.”
I, of course, have an elegant solution.
Let me set it out then describe at length why this is needed to address the concerns you raise & I share. The beauty is it does not require congressional action. In theory. But they could certainly make it cleaner if they could just get along for 5 minutes. It would take a 2-page bill (really 1 page but this is Congress). I volunteer to draft it. No charge. Maybe just no IRS audits for a while?
The problem with the cut & dried analysis under existing law above is that it does not address issues facing LEOs IRL (in particular ICE agents), it leaves homes a safe space for criminals (“Ollie Ollie oxen free!”), & solutions threaten to clog our already overburdened court system or die in committee in Congress.
Tl;dr - what we need are a new set of procedures for judges/magistrates who follow an efficient procedure using existing paperwork to process immigration arrest or detainer warrants. ICE may already arrest or detain in public on Title 8 civil authority or final removal orders, but home entry without consent requires a judicial arrest warrant, obtainable through streamlined magistrate procedures.
To first principles (apologies in advance for the length, but my goal is to provide information people can use or rebut in debate):
1. The court system constitutionally must be separate from the law enforcement system, so arrest warrants must be generated by an independent judiciary rather than higher-ups in DOJ or DHS:
“The Fourth Amendment’s protection consists in requiring that inferences be drawn by a neutral and detached magistrate instead of by the officer engaged in the competitive enterprise of ferreting out crime.” (Johnson v. United States, 333 U.S. 10, 13–14 (1948).)
2. The deportation element of immigration enforcement is a civil, not criminal action:
“A deportation proceeding is a purely civil action to determine eligibility to remain in this country, not to punish an unlawful entry.” (INS v. Lopez-Mendoza, 468 U.S. 1032, 1038 (1984).)
3. It is a violation of the 4A for law enforcement (including ICE) to break into a person’s domicile without permission, exigent circumstances, or a judicial warrant.
“[F]or Fourth Amendment purposes, an arrest warrant founded on probable cause implicitly carries with it the limited authority to enter a dwelling in which the suspect lives when there is reason to believe the suspect is within.” (Payton v. New York, 445 U.S. 573, 603 (1980).
4. The variety of ICE documentation that makes an ICE arrest or detainer lawful are not the same as an Art 3 arrest warrant.
You often hear ICE (or Trump, but I repeat myself) critics say that illegal immigration is a civil not criminal matter. Yes & no. As the SCOTUS above noted, the deportation proceeding is a civil action, as are other aspects of Title 8. Congress established an administrative track for dealing with deportation as well as other immigration matters. Going along with the Separation of Powers (tm), criminal prosecutions need a neutral adjudicating party (the Judicial) separate from the law enforcement part of government (the Executive, here, ICE) & the law-making part (the Legislative, when they can be bothered [you may note a bit of contempt for Congress from me]).
Seems clear enough. Since deportation is a civil matter (intending to remedy a social or political problem), then some claim ICE has no police powers. “You can’t arrest me! I’m an AmCit!” Again, not so much.
In spite of much of the Immigration & Naturalization Act enforcement being an administrative function, the immigration statutes (Title 8, or 8 USC …) include multiple immigration-related felony & misdemeanor crimes.
5. Encouraging or inducing illegal entry or residence — 8 U.S.C. § 1324(a)(1)(A)(iv)
There are other statutes in the U.S.C. that are related to immigration, such as lying to an immigration officer (18 U.S.C. 1001).
Then there is the statute that many ICE agent ”protestors” need to be aware of:
18 U.S.C. § 111 — Assaulting, resisting, or impeding certain officers or employees
(a) In general.—Whoever—
(1) forcibly assaults, resists, opposes, impedes, intimidates, or interferes with any person designated in section 1114 of this title while engaged in or on account of the performance of official duties; or…
shall, where the acts in violation of this section constitute only simple assault, be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than one year, or both [a misdemeanor], and where such acts involve physical contact with the victim of that assault or the intent to commit another felony, be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 8 years, or both [a felony].
(b) Enhanced penalty.—Whoever, in the commission of any acts described in subsection (a), uses a deadly or dangerous weapon (including a weapon intended to cause death or danger but that fails to do so by reason of a defective component) or inflicts bodily injury, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both.” [This can include a car; end citation.]
MN (or anywhere) protestors who attempt to block or ram ICE or CBP agents who are performing their duties can be arrested & if found guilty spend 1-20 years in prison. I suspect we will start seeing many more such arrests of people, AmCits or not, who attempt to block or use violence against federal agents. This could get real ugly, real quick.
Are ICE officers able to arrest people charged with these crimes? Yes.
8 USC § 1357. Powers of immigration officers and employees
(a) Powers without warrant
Any officer or employee of the Service authorized under regulations prescribed by the Attorney General shall have power without warrant-
(1) to interrogate any alien or person believed to be an alien as to his right to be or to remain in the United States;
(2) to arrest any alien who in his presence or view is entering or attempting to enter the United States in violation of any law or regulation made in pursuance of law regulating the admission, exclusion, expulsion, or removal of aliens, or to arrest any alien in the United States, if he has reason to believe that the alien so arrested is in the United States in violation of any such law or regulation and is likely to escape before a warrant can be obtained for his arrest, but the alien arrested shall be taken without unnecessary delay for examination before an officer of the Service having authority to examine aliens as to their right to enter or remain in the United States;
(3) within a reasonable distance from any external boundary of the United States, to board and search for aliens any vessel within the territorial waters of the United States and any railway car, aircraft, conveyance, or vehicle, and within a distance of twenty-five miles from any such external boundary to have access to private lands, but not dwellings, for the purpose of patrolling the border to prevent the illegal entry of aliens into the United States;
(4) to make arrests for felonies which have been committed and which are cognizable under any law of the United States regulating the admission, exclusion, expulsion, or removal of aliens, if he has reason to believe that the person so arrested is guilty of such felony and if there is likelihood of the person escaping before a warrant can be obtained for his arrest, but the person arrested shall be taken without unnecessary delay before the nearest available officer empowered to commit persons charged with offenses against the laws of the United States; and
(5) to make arrests-
(A) for any offense against the United States, if the offense is committed in the officer's or employee's presence, or
(B) for any felony cognizable under the laws of the United States, if the officer or employee has reasonable grounds to believe that the person to be arrested has committed or is committing such a felony… [End citation.]
Are people charged with any of the statutory crimes listed above tried in immigration courts? No. They are tried in Art 3 criminal courts for these charged crimes.
So the ICE officer is caught between being a civil enforcement cop & a federal criminal cop.
Given the above, what can be done to satisfy the separation of powers, give ICE the tools it needs to effectively enforce the laws Congress passed & both Democrat & Republican presidents signed into law, while not hopelessly overburdening the Art 3 courts? & what is possible without Congress passing any new laws (which, when it comes to immigration, probably isn’t going to happen)?
ICE needs a streamlined warrant approval system to obtain Art 3 arrest warrants as needed without Congress adding a new court system (like FISA) or overburdening the already stressed court system.
Currently, state & local police officers have such a system in place where they can establish probable cause (PC) for the issuance of an arrest warrant electronically (& receive enforceable judicial warrants back electronically) quickly.
Why does this matter?
We want to defend our constitutional rights while at the same time give ICE & CBP the tools they need (as well as guardrails). While it is simple, safe (for all), & efficient for law enforcement agencies to honor ICE detainers (“You arrested Bing Tran for spousal abuse. We want him for violating 8 U.S.C. § 1326(a). Here’s our form I-247A establishing PC. Thanks!”), sanctuary jurisdictions order their LEOs not to honor them. That requires apprehending suspects elsewhere. Instead of two ICE officers cuffing Mr. Tran & loading him into their car in an underground garage, 20 agents in 6 vehicles have to descend on a neighborhood or workplace & deal with obstructive & sometimes violent mobs. The odds of someone getting hurt or killed like Renee Good increases exponentially.
The reality is that many illegal aliens (the designation found in the U.S. Code) will be released back into the world where ICE will need to hunt them down. Many others with criminal records are not currently in jail, so arrests in public, in work places, & in domiciles are necessary. Should ICE agents have the same tools available to them as street cops?
We need a safe, efficient system to put ICE agents in the same constitutional arena as other cops with valid arrest warrants so cases like Payton control lawful arrests & detainers.
ICE officers need a way to get judicial warrants quickly & without clogging the court system.
How does such a system get put in place absent (unlikely) congressional action?
In a Thao-type case, the SCOTUS could hold something like:
• Home entry without consent (breaking in) to make an immigration arrest requires prior judicial authorization under the 4A;
• DOJ/DHS/ICE paperwork (administrative warrants, detainers, removal orders) do not satisfy the warrant requirement to make unconsented entry;
• PC for such a warrant may be established through existing sworn ICE forms currently used to get administrative detainer approval, including but not limited to forms I-213, I-200, I-205, so long as a Art 3 judge independently evaluates them.
In holding this, the SCOTUS would be hewing to the Constitution. The SCOTUS would then vacate the judgment below (if necessary) and remand back to the lower court for further proceedings consistent with its opinion. That court would implement a practice to facilitate ICE warrant applications, & other courts across the country would preemptively or as the cases arose also follow this constitutional guidance.
This would not be a unique massive change for courts without an act of Congress or Executive order. For example, Brady v. Maryland, 373 U.S. 83 (1963) required prosecutors to disclose exculpatory evidence, Miranda v. Arizona, 384 U.S. 436 (1966) (“You have the right to remain silent…) caused country-wide retraining of cops & standards for the court, etc.
I can dream. If only I hadn’t lost CJ Roberts’ cell number.
In every police action we have to assume that police behavior is constitutional because our opinion doesn't matter. Whether a specific entry or seizure is constitutional is determined by a court at a later date. It might go all the way to the supreme court and be years before it is resolved.
Until that is determined to be unconstitutional, we have to assume and act as if it is constitutional--because if we don't then we have anarchy and there is no law.
This why this talk of warrants is so fucking dangerous--and purposefully so. It is to encourage lawlessness and anarchy.
As citizens we have no ability to adjudicate the issue because we are not judges. Encouraging people to decide the issue of constitutionally of police action on the ground is massively irresponsible behavior.
And at best, anyone's jawboning on this issue can only be a prediction.
Calling Matt part of the “misinformation machine” is outrageous. He may not be right 💯 but he is one of the BEST independent journalists out there and we are lucky to have him. Ps He is teaching people. A lot Lester!
Thank you. I just retracted my "like" for the article. While it is clear that filtered information is a big problem, the context and corrections you have furnished should have been included. I watch police bodycam arrests on YouTube as a hobby. What LEOs put up with on a regular basis is staggering!
I watch those too, and one of the frequent incidents is drivers telling officers “I don’t have to show you ID or tell you my name.” (Hilarity ensues.).
If Mr. Chongly went that route when he could have
easily identified himself as an American citizen, then I can understand why it may have taken a ride to convince him.
Appreciate the information you share, but not your claim that Matt is “part of the misinformation machine”. That is not true. Maybe you said that in frustration or anger? He asks you a question. Hope you respond as you seem knowledgeable and I would be interested to know the answer.
Matt Taibbi is perhaps a bit like Donald Trump: not perfect, sometimes does things you disagree with, but pretty much the only alternative to something far far worse.
I do too! I pay for a subscription because I think Matt Taibbi is doing important work that few others are doing.
And that's why I don't "expect" or "need" to agree with everything he says or believes. I want Taibbi to be Taibbi, an independent voice, which means I expect and welcome differing, challenging, opinions.
How will I learn anything if all I hear are echoes of my own voice?
But Taibbi didn't say "without a judicial warrant," he said "without a warrant." ICE clearly did not have any of what you helpfully mention: "Final Orders of Removal (issued by an administrative Immigration Judge or IJ, or an order from the Board of Immigration Appeals or BIA), a Warrant of Removal/Deportation (Form I-205) signed by a DHS/ICE official or the USAG, as well as an Administrative Arrest Warrant (Form I-200), Expedited Removal Order, or Reinstated Removal Order also issued by a DHS official or IJ. ICE agents may also detail illegal aliens based on a Record of Deportable/Inadmissible Alien (Form I-213; an administrative form), Criminal Conviction Records establishing removability, or IDENT/biometric match tied to DHS immigration records." They had the wrong man, meaning they didn't have any authorization to take him. I've heard people incorrectly outraged about ICE actions "without a judicial warrant," but Taibbi got didn't do this.
“If Juan, released with no cash bail pending his trial for sex trafficking, is looked for at his last known address, where Mario & Julio who are also in the US illegally are hanging with him, they will be detained & deported, too.”
Yes, but in this case Juan wasn’t even there and it was an American citizen who was detained.
They should apologize to the wrongly identified man. None of us know why the man was not allowed to put clothes on. Maybe he didn't want to, who knows? Regardless, ICE should just be honest and say they made a mistake and apologize. I notice the family has a GoFundMe. And, barging into churches to pass your moral judgment while children are actively hiding their faces and crying and then FOLLOWING THEM TO THEIR CARS is beyond reprehensible and it says a lot about Minnesota that they have not been arrested or charged with state crimes. It bothers me that we have no control over what we see. Because no one wants to tell the whole truth from every angle, no one knows anything. The professional journalists are gone.
Platforms aside, the competing narratives are camouflaging the real bottom line. Dems have no choice but to fight each and every deportation, as if their lives depend on it, because politically they do.
As even the NYT recently acknowledged, Reapportionment is going to make winning the House and WH much more difficult for Dems, going forward. Millions of voting Americans have fled from Blue States to Red ones. The wave may have slowed a bit, but it is not reversing. Biden migrants have greatly helped replace fleeing Blue state residents. The new arrivals cannot vote, but they count for the Census, which will determine Apportionment
A byproduct of the Big Sort, has been the Far Left wing of the Dem Party running roughshod in some Blue Cities, with more to follow. Many Blue cities abandoned by Reps and moderates due to taxes, cost, crime or single Party rule, now lack any real opposition. Without an opposition Party, Socialists on Steroids will soon be the norm, not the exception. That is unlikely to aid Dems in 2026, and it definitely will not help their 2028 WH aspirations.
Moreover, even if SCOTUS misses the deadline for this year's Midterms, a ruling on the Voting Rights Act will arrive eventually, and when it does, it is likely to aid Reps.
Democratic leadership is not stupid. They understand the above. That is why they work so hard to convince Dem Mothers, even briefly, wrongly detaining a legally immigrant or citizen, is worse then allowing a convicted migrant child rapist to emerge from prison, free to stalk his next sodomy victim. In Dem world, the overriding priority is not removal of criminal migrants, but removal of as few total migrants, as possible.
Don Lemon is such a self-indulgent virtue signaling fraud, often fired, always banging on the white supremacy drum, racists and Nazis ad nauseum. Pretending to do journalism.
He is and always was entertainment: "oh look honey, that catty gay with the fruity name is slinging sly zingers on CNN again! It's like we're back in the '70s watching Hollywood Squares but this time Paul Lynde is *a black!* He's a black *and* a gay honey, oh I feel so progressive watching him slay!"
This reads like Chatbot slop. In less time that it took to squeeze out this "what others are saying crap" you could have done very basic research into this story.
This is from just a little basic research.
From ChongLy Scott Thao's gofundme that has already raised $86,928 and counting (there is so much money at play in this game)
"Without showing a warrant or asking for identification..."
Here is ChongLy Scott Thao contradicting his own gofundme:
"...they asked me if I had my ID and I go yeah it's in the room and then my daughter in law tried to get my ID but they didn't want to see it no more."
Here ChongLy Scott Thao is quoted as saying he told his daughter in law not to open the door.
"ChongLy “Scott” Thao told the AP that his daughter-in-law woke him up from a nap Sunday afternoon and said that U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents were banging at the door of his residence in St. Paul. He told her not to open it."
Make this make sense as to why he has now locked himself in his bedroom. He knows he is a citizen. Why is he hiding in his locked bedroom?
No one wants to fight naked. This is primal shit.
How in the world between the time he knows ICE is there and they bust down the door has he not gotten dressed. What the hell is he doing in his locked bedroom the whole time--besides getting dressed? Destroying evidence? What the fuck else does he have to do besides get dressed? It takes 15 seconds tops to put on pants and a shirt.
All of this bothered me. Why was Matt Taibbi accepting the "testimony" of others unquestioning? Liberal slant &bias? One (X) is almost FULLY documented on video. The other is based on one sided statements (bias?) and iphone videos?? ICE did not apologize, really? Did they? Didn't they? Should they? Did Matt Taibbi try to get statements from ICE officials??
Racket =Journalism , doesn't seem so, more like more propaganda?
Just asking, inquiring minds (at least mine) want to know.
And just like the Good video we are presented with a very edited and scripted version of events coming straight from the protesters themselves.
And just like the Good video we can infer for investigatory purposes that what has been edited out does not support the narrative.
I am suspicious that we only see the door knocked down because time between the knock and announce, and breaking the door down does not logically support him still being undressed.
It is very suspicious that he is not dressed. Again what else does he have to get done besides get dressed and get his ID together? It's cold walking around your house in your underwear during the winter--and no one wants to fight naked.
How many seconds between the knock and announce and the door knock down before him still being in his underwear is beyond credibility?
Even assuming he needs a couple minutes to destroy evidence--it doesn't take very long until him still being undressed is a very purposeful choice.
Give the dude a break, he's just trying to make a little I $ off the ICE mistake and his inconvenience. I can imagine being discombobulated in this scenario, and I imagine he changed the scenario a bit to jerk more heartstrings and wallets.
Besides confirming part of the government's story--it's hard to call this a mistake. You can't just let people go when they refuse to be identified when serving a warrant. His own actions by his own admission caused his own detainment in order to identify him.
He got a big payday, and it cost the government a bunch of money to figure out what could have been determined in minutes had he cooperated.
Thanks for the illuminating follow-up. Alas, this line of questioning takes more time than Tik Tok allows so this added dimension will never see the light of day.
He complained about it quietly but was too weak to deal with it.
When confronted with indirect implications of it on twitter before he sold twitter (and thus way before the twitter files existed to prove anything) he responded with the Godfather meme of Vito Corleone crying over seeing his dead and mutilated son's body with the original quote of "Look at how they massacured my boy!" referring to the board of twitter and other people who had a controll over twitter policy that was eventually revealed to be used for censorship.
The two stories are simply not comparable in terms of outrage.
There's no evidence that ICE was intentionally malicious in pursuing its sex offenders, and if they'd had the right guy (or he wasn't a Protected Class(TM)), the outrage would be nonexistent.
But this church invasion is unprecedented and horrible, the mainstream endorsement of it is a separate horror, and the muted response from right-wing institutions is a third.
Does Matt Taibbi mean to suggest that gross disparity in actual wrongness is another feature of the partisan divide?
If ICE did in fact break down Thao's door without a warrant, that's illegal and it needs to be punished. The Fourth Amendment matters.
The Church invasion is a different kind of horrible, because it targeted the pastor for being a member of ICE, *and* it may have terroistically threatened his parishioners too. It wasn't by government actors, but by what's effectively a vigilante group of leftists attempting to intimidate those they disagree with.
The Church invasion amounts to a stalking/harassment/disruption by private citizens against the private persona of an ICE affiliated pastor.
The state barging in and terrorizing the wrong people (which keeps happening) is totally and completely unacceptable, and must stop.
I agree that both are bad, but the individual actors of the leftists invading the church aren't public policy, and aren't being protected with "full immunity" by the current gov in power.
The MSM endorsement of church invasion is indeed a separate horror.
And why aren’t they bothered? My guess is bc none of them go to any church, so no biggie.
Suppose this had been a mosque that had been invaded with chanting protestors? I'll bet a week's pay the coverage would have been different. (Or a temple.)
If I’m a pastor I now hire armed security to stand outside my church to protect my flock. I’m sorry but this isn’t activism. This is mob rule and it’s time to stand up for our civil liberties that get stomped on because fear creates silence.
I’m only on X, but I saw both stories. One reason for that is even if you are in one camp or another, if there is a story that is bad for your camp you usually see people in your camp explaining why it isn’t a big deal or the situation was misreported.
100%. If you follow left/independent voices on X, as well as right/independent voices, you see both.
The thing is, "Bluesky brain" is tiny, tiny fraction of the population. No one I know uses it (in NYC) and I certainly never see real reporting linked from there. The anti-woke left doesn't live there, neither do independents.
However, it is an interesting observation, because if you follow voices like Greenwald, Dropsite News, etc on X, in addition to Trump Admin officials or right wing commentary, this isn't a problem. Kinda shows that Taibbi isn't following any left-ish voices on X....
The church activism doesn’t pass the purity test. If it had been an all black church and an angry mob of white protesters disrupted services, there would be outrage. A Jewish temple and Palestinian activists. Use any example you want of a group of people practicing their religion. We hold religious services of any kind to be especially sacred because that is exactly WHY America was founded, because of religious persecution in England.
NBC, ABC, CBS, Reuters, USA Today, AP, BBC, NYT etc spent 2021-2024 denying that the Biden Administration had instituted de facto open borders, that the country had been flooded by millions of unvetted unknown strangers, and claimed that even if some of these masses included criminals and gangbangers, this was a small price to pay for compassion and "our values" (the foremost of which is low-wage labor), and only bigots notice anyway.
Now suddenly NBC, ABC, CBS, Reuters, USA Today, AP, BBC, NYT etc are laser-focused on the migrants they spent years ignoring, cataloging every ICE fuckup and every sob story of a "local man" and his kids who are being sent home, making sure to omit whatever charges he may be facing, and absolutely making sure to omit that 1) there are thousands of criminals here with no papers, and any country would arrest and deport them; 2) they've spent years constantly crowing about Our Democracy™ yet the current Prez, however repulsive, ran and won on this issue and thus is actually fulfilling a campaign promise, however crudely and crassly; and 3) if they are opposed to federal immigration law, Our Democracy™ should run on this, win and change the law.
But the biggest question I have for the owners, editors and mouthpieces of NBC, ABC, CBS, Reuters, USA Today, AP, BBC, NYT etc: how many migrants are you currently housing or sponsoring? How many of your vacation homes and spare bedrooms sit empty while you cry for the plight of the undocumented? How many members of your families have been hurt or worse by an illegal alien criminal?
Our MSM overclass believes only in their divine right to outsource all the costs and social rot, while privatizing all profits and hogging all virtue. Just don't try to make me believe they give a shit about any immigrants, legal or otherwise, unless they're serving them food or scrubbing their toilets. They only want us all to hate and fight each other, for their social and financial benefit. Social collapse is now their newest profit stream!
I wish it was made unavoidably clear that if authorities cooperated with ICE detainers that none of this would be necessary or happening. I would like someone to do a comparison study of ICE activity in a non-sanctuary state vs a "sanctuary" state (quotation marks due to the fact that it is against federal law to provide this so called sanctuary). I live in one of these states and I am appalled at some of the cretins that have been sent off into the ether of our society but it is par for the course in this place.
Tom Homan recently stated, “'Let us in the jail. Stop being a sanctuary jurisdiction, sanctuary state, sanctuary city. Give us access to your jail so we can arrest these criminals in the safety and security of the jail. That way, we don’t have to go into the neighborhood and find them,' Homan said." https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/crime/4421303/tom-homan-offers-pull-ice-from-minneapolis-if-allowed-access-jails/
If that's the way things went down there wouldn't be the collateral damage of regular illegal aliens being swept up in the course of trying to find the criminals, the fact of their illegal presence itself a crime sufficient to warrant arrest.
Duh.
—I wish it was made unavoidably clear that if authorities cooperated with ICE detainers that none of this would be necessary or happening.
same, but that would require sanity, common sense and an allegiance to facts over tribal narratives and their monetization. thus it seems doubtful.
And honesty
Says exactly that JD Vance today in MN. Lets see how the media will spin his remarks which IMO were clearly articulated.
tom homan during trump = fascist!
tom homan during obama = Executive Associate Director for Enforcement and Removal Operations (ERO) (the deportation branch) for Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) and receiving a Presidential Rank Award from President Obama in 2015 for his service, even as ICE carried out record deportations under that administration.
Thank you for the contrast above.
Clinton deportations were 12.3 million. Bush II deportations were 10.3 million. Obama deportations were 5.3 million. https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/obama-record-deportations-deporter-chief-or-not
I read that deportations in 2025 were projected at 600 thousand. A fraction of the annual pace in the Clinton and Bush administrations. And still less than the first 5-years of the Obama administration.
Trump still has 3 years left. Give it time.
LOL, i mean you just can't make it up
The bluesky shrews and their eunuchs want the (perception of) violence to advance their TDS agenda. The immigrants themselves are beside the point.
Yes.
Similarly or at least analogously, as I've posted elsewhere, I went to grad school in MN. Arrived very liberal, left pretty conservative.
Protesting is a cottage industry in Minnesota. The "issue" is essentially irrelevant, the protest is the goal.
The issue only serves as a pretext for having a protest.
It's quite annoying as valid issues are used as tools by silly, insecure, self-centered clowns to secure virtue-signaling rights and photo-ops.
Real change takes work. Work and persistence. Not, "Let's get together and get rowdy and scream" kind of fun.
Which is why, if you check photos from the 1960s, 1970s, 1980s, 1990s, 2000s, 2010s and today the people you see at protests are largely the same age bracket.
Granted the "overton age window" (so to speak) has grown over the years as people try to relive their youth and seek relevance [sic!!!] but I'd wager that the 90th percentile (i.e., such that 90% are that age or younger) is in the late 20s. There are definitely more people in their 30s and older at these protests than in the past but the people 35 and older are really (I think) just looking for something to do and some way to feel "relevant" [again, 'sic'].
Many interviews over the last 20 years have illustrated (though can't claim statistical significance of course) that lots of these people...maybe most...really have a poor understanding of the "issue" they claim to feel so passionate about.
Is there a reason Blue cities are pulling their state and local law enforcement from working with ICE? Yes, it directly interferes in the flow of valuable information. It creates great optics as it will cause more errors from ICE as they have to ask for ID when local enforcement would normally give them this information. State and local LE usually know where criminals reside. Tom Homan before taking charge asked for cooperation because it would allow them to focus on criminal illegal immigrants. State and local law enforcement know a lot more information and it slows down ICE operations. This was deliberate and the optics are working in their favor.
And who can forget how this American woke, virtue signalling elite responded to the illegal immigrants delivered to Martha's Vineyard!!
They could not get them out of there fast enough!!
Great comment, as usual.
I also appreciated Matt's calling attention to the fact that we consumers of news are by no means blameless. The internet provides many and diverse sources and opinions. It is up to us, however frustrating, to understand that reality is complicated. Each of us fills his own plate from an endless buffet of healthy and unhealthy options.
Agreed.
An interesting thing I keep wondering about, is when the wind might change. Like, the precariot made of illegal immigrants right now drives the MSN overclass' Ubers and lifts, serves their food, scrubs their floors, etc... . If hypothetically this precariot is suddenly replaced by even cheaper robot labor, how fast will the MSN overclass turn on the immigrants the moment they are no longer a useful service tool for them? Those rapes and murders "were fine" to them as long as scrubbing floors could be made as cheeply as possible, but when that is no longer the case how will they behave?
I doubt it will matter, because their presence in the country adds more congressional seats in Dem districts, and we know that many are able to vote.
It's all about political power.
Every illegal they pick up in Minnesota is one less criminal they can protect, to give them credentials to vote and teach them how to defraud the American people while grifting off the fumes of corruption.
They will discard the illegal aliens like turds, and turn the robots into a new category of Oppressed Disadvantaged PeopleX.
They will definitely discard once they've served their purpose. Just like in the documentary "Wild Country" when the cult brought in all the homeless people so they could vote and then bussed them right out once some of them became too much to deal with.
I haven't seen that documentary. I'll check it out!
They will never give up their illegal aliens. Robots can't vote.
A law could fix that
But then wouldn’t the robots be declared citizens (or whatever) with rights and salary requirements, regular maintenance and restrictions on replacing them when they are no longer the “new” model? I know it sounds crazy but nothing surprises me anymore.
Maybe. I would bet it will be something more like the “three fifths compromise” where slaves counted as three fifths of a person for allocating congressmen, but still couldn't participate in the political process at all. The robots will get whatever maximizes their owners but minimizes themselves.
And, where was all the coverage when Obama who deported over 3 million “illegal “ immigrants while president. Where were the protestors then? This is all horse shit. These people don’t give a rats ass about the immigrants. This is all about orange man bad!
I didn't believe the "Hmong man" story in the first place. Police came with a warrant looking for sex offenders (not ICE jurisdiction) with ICE in tow, the family refused to open and co-operate, police broke the door and took this man, fingerprinted him, figured out it wasn't him and returned home. Sounds about right. The rest is flaff and hysteria. I don't believe they wouldn't have a warrant for sex offenders, but how do you show it to those who won't talk with you?
UPDATE: I take it back, police can enter without warrant a dwelling of sex offenders on parole or probation for periodic checks. Unless this family moved in a month ago, it should be the sex offender current address, not a mess up. Which begs a question about their relation to the family. If this man was harboring criminals from ICE, refusing to open the door and making noise, so they can escape, ICE had the right to arrest him. They can't deport a citizen but they can charge him with an immigration crime such as harboring. If it were an honest mess up, then answering to police "we moved in a month ago, such and such don't live here anymore" would've been sufficient.
Twitter files is not only about twitter.
Wow, well SAID!
Thanks!
Sadly, most people I talk to IRL don’t believe it’s orchestrated.
Truth!
«"our values" (the foremost of which is low-wage labor)»
Actually it is higher property prices! Mass immigration is tenant+worker quantitative easing, designed to put huge pressure on housing and jobs.
Many "conservatives" that oppose mass immigration would change opinion quickly if stopping it meant that their house price would be cut by 50% (and the cost of their gardening, cleaning, delivering, nursing, would go up by 50%).
I can't see this as a property benefit. Mass immigration does not yield home owners, it yields massive welfare and rent subsidies.
«Mass immigration does not yield home owners»
That is irrelevant: it greatly increases demand for housing, whether rental or owned, and boost considerably property prices. There was a paper by G. Mankiw in the 1990s saying that unless things changed the aging of the baby boomers and the smaller generations after them would result in a collapse of house prices as the number of renters and first house buyers shrank, and after a decade another paper came out showing that immigration had more than compensated for the shrinking of the native citizen population greatly boosting house prices instead.
«yields massive welfare and rent subsidies.»
If you really think that after Clinton's "end of welfare as we know it" and several republican administrations and majorities being ever meaner on welfare (except to corporations) there is still massive money to make by going on welfare and getting rent subsidies you should try that option and see how much you enjoy it :-).
Actually the vast majority of immigrants are illegals and they pay Social Security contributions but cannot collect any benefits. Illegal immigrants have much delayed the budget issues with Social Security.
A market is determined by supply and demand. In my years, I have seen experts prove to be idiots far more often than being prescient. G, Mankiw is no exception.
Supply of new homes has lagged demand consistently for many decades. County and state overregulation and environmental alarmists have driven up building costs by 15%. Affordability is an issue affecting both supply and demand. When you add in reckless spending by Congress and inept Federal Reserve leadership that utterly failed at assessing bank mortgage risks (Bernanke) and incompetence at fighting inflation (Powell), the financial risks home builders are willing to take are tempered. Bottom line any thoughts of over building or significant demand destruction leading to large price adjustments are low probability scenarios.
i'll meet u in the middle...higher property valuations, higher stock prices, AND lower wages. The West has an unquenchable thirst for cheap labor, this is why the MSM etc fetishize the "migrant community".
I didn’t see my home prices or my household services does read with millions of immigrants entering the country. On the contrary, I saw just the opposite happen.
Reduce in price, sorrow auto correct. Ugh
> a former ACLU legal director, who declared the FACE Act should not apply, provided Cities Church members were not “barred from taking Communion or some other religious activity.” The ACLU has been silent on whether or not the Cities Church action constitutes protected First Amendment speech.
I formerly had a great deal of respect for the ACLU. Now I know, to my chagrin, that the right-wingers were right to mock the ACLU as "the American Criminal Liberties Union."
So this (granted, former) ACLU legal director wants to split hairs by claiming that interrupting the taking of Communion might violate FACE, but that interrupting a pastor's sermon to his flock does not?
And didn't Minnesota's Attorney General Keith Ellison want the DOJ to prosecute people under FACE for filming *outside* Muslim masjids?
It's always Two Tier "Justice" with the Left, it's never what's done but always who is doing it, that determines what is or isn't legal for the Left.
As for Thao, ICE needs to show better discipline and restraint. It's illegal and embarrassing when they fail to get warrants, break down doors, arrest the wrong people in their underwear. Do the job, but do it professionally and legally.
Trump was elected to *end* the chaos and the misuse of Federal authority.
The ACLU operates as a Democrat Party SuperPAC.
Its sad because that wasn't always the case. The ACLU's abrupt change around 2017-ish from their previously non-partison position to one radically partison (while more sinisterly putting up and maintaining a decent veneer of pretending to be non-partison) was a shockingly abrupt and toxic rug-pull on a once great institution.
Wish it weren’t so…
It's all a ruse to deflect from the massive fraud and grift going on with the connivance of Democrat pols and their Somali pets.
In short: кто кого
Who to whom, as per Lenin. The ACLU has picked sides and it ain't America.
Yup.
I just went to ACLU.org and the landing page has a much too close up photo of the president's face and words:
"Defeat, Delay, Dilute: ACLU Versus President Trump
We're telling the story of the first year of our fight against the second Trump administration, our lessons learned, and our path forward."
like it is their total mission.
It is like Trump Derangement Syndrome (the first time I have typed those words) isolated, distilled and concentrated to a toxic purity.
Question is whether Trump is really their target or this is a psychic weapon with other goals in mind.
Hummmmm.
"The issue is never the issue. The issue is the revolution." - Mike Benz
You got that right, pard.
The remake always makes me wonder why they bothered.
Because it is effective? Most Americans will not go along with overt revolution/communism/socialism. But, the constant changing of the subject is disruptive and all boils down to the same goals I think. Although, I am not sure that there is an end goal beyond power and "out with the old order".
It reminds me a bit of the generational dilution of the civil rights movement. The grandchildren seem pale shadows.
Movements and their institutions never just go away because they have won. Just look how the gay rights movement turned into the normalization of transsexuality and sex rejecting procedures for profit (while at the same time "there is no sexed reality").
The kids are useful idiots - more like the Chinese Red Guard than the actual Civil Rights generation in MLK's time. They do want to feel good about themselves though.
It became "hate speech", "micro-aggressions", Identity politics....
not at all the dream of people being viewed for their character instead of how they look.
Exactly so. The grand idea becomes petty in the hands of the wannabe.
Yes.
The ACLU jumped the shark. Just look at Kate/Chase Strangio.
The ACLU pussied out, because they collectively had even fewer balls than Chase.
Ha! They are no better than the SPLC now.
Just for the record, her real name is Kate. "Chase" is made up. Oddly, I think that the last name of Strange-io is legit. Weird and Strange!
"Kate Strangio from Grinnell College and Newton, MA"
https://www.gilderlehrman.org/programs-and-events/history-scholar-program-winners
I think that she threw the parents who named her Kate and raised her under the bus which is a thing now. She sounds like she's on Helium with the testosterone drugging. She was a total idiot before the Supreme Court.
Such people need real mental health help - not the woke videos about mental health our kids are shown at school.
That woman is creepy.
...what difference time makes ... AG Ellison from a press release from his office (April 24, 2020) wrote ...
"“It’s my job to help all Minnesotans live with dignity and respect. Living with dignity and respect looks like being able to go to any public place you choose, including your house of worship, without the fear or threat that you’ll be harassed, intimidated, or persecuted for who you are or whom you pray to. I’m defending the constitutionality of our law that protects Minnesotans of all faiths and backgrounds from that kind of harassment. Minnesotans want everyone to live with the same dignity and respect that they want for themselves.”"
This was a statement made about the videoing *outside* the Dar Al-Farooq Islamic Center ...
With regards to Thao, it's more than embarrassing-- his constitutional rights were violated by ICE. Every single conservative and libertarian should be taking this transgression seriously. Based on the details in Matt's writeup, this was no case of mistaken identity, just a monumental screwup by hotheaded agents. The officers who did this should be suspended from their duties while they undergo additional training. Additionally, Thao deserves a full apology from ICE along with financial compensation for damage to his home.
Agreed.
According to Thao's family, at least one Laotian sex offender had lived in the house previously. It is also notoriously true that members of any distinct ethnic group look "the same” to other ethnic groups in a hurry. Under the circumstances, mistaken identity was certainly possible.
That is no excuse, however, for the thuggish and outrageous behavior of ICE against a half-clothed and defenseless elderly man. It was an equally thoughtless, but far more dangerous and aggressive version of TSA's absurd patdown of an old lady at the airport.
i'm left with the thought that ICE and TSA security may not represent the beauty and chivalry of the law enforcement community.
Read Coffee and Covid for why barging into private property to loudly protest is not protected. Scream what you want in the street but you can’t force your way into someone’s home or place of worship with impunity according to Childers.
Instead of ending it he seems to be expanding it. Most of us fully support targeted criminal removals. I have talked myself into being ok with self-supporting tax-paying alien presence because lawful deportation of such huge numbers seems impossible, but I remain adamantly against any pathway whatsoever to voting and citizenship short of honorable military service.
Meanwhile, over time, E verify and stiff penalties to employers should largely take care of the problem. We,d also need to rethink public benefit incentive. Neither party seems interested so I,m not holding my breath.
Even if the "undocumented" aren't voting (and some *are* voting), they are counted in the Census for apportioning congressional districts and electoral votes.
This gives Democrats more seats and more power, which they use to bring in more immigrants.
Yes, I agree that it is an underhanded way to apportion the House. The fact remains that all of Biden,s imports via legal ports of entrance are in fact “legally present." The problem is a real tangle.
The US is the archetypal whore with a heart of gold. Our government has a hard time with "NO!" and it affects/infects social policy across the board. It and fraud are the main reasons American healthcare is such a mess.
It almost seems like a kind of vicarious empathy. Government workers and liberal supporters take spiritual sustenance from distributing other peoples' money.
Maybe some weird variant of Munchausen by proxy
Perfect analogy. The more problems, more need for their empathy and intervention. If you don't mind, I'm gonna steal that one!
I really enjoy how you put things…
I do agree somewhat with your comment regarding ICE being a bit more respectful, but then I’m reminded if my law enforcement friends that say eventually enough is enough . They don’t get respected
Professionalism and discipline garner respect. Professionalism includes being calm, appropriate, restrained, and polite when interacting with the public.
That's what distinguishes a police force from a gang or a mob.
It definitely seems like a vicious circle.
LE officers have become a distinct social caste that is despised by most of the political actors today. "ACAB" comes naturally to most college educated youth, the attitude is pervasive in academia.
The only real positive portrayal of police in media is a celebration of rogue cops that break all of the rules, getting the bad guy after a car chase and public gunfight.
The more society at large deplores LE the more isolated and insulated cops become. Turn up the pressure, like in Minneapolis, and bad stuff is bound to happen.
Agree, but if you deport 600 thousand, how many encounters does that add up to? A million or more? Mistakes happen and they should be actively managed to positive outcomes. On a percentage basis the error rate is?
The ACLU lost any credibility they had when they completely ignored, and often cheerleaded, our rights being trampled on during Covid
I still get fundraising pleas in the mail—TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP STOP TRUMP. I tear them into little pieces except the fill out money form—that I write “when pigs fly” on—then send it all back to them in the postpaid envelope. I regret even that amount of time engaged in this action. Covid cured me of the ACLU for good.
Well said!
Have we even heard the story straight from ice, about what actually happened?
I have not. I did see a story which claims that ICE internally circulated a secret memo telling agents that they can forcibly enter homes with only an administrative warrant.
https://apnews.com/article/ice-arrests-warrants-minneapolis-trump-00d0ab0338e82341fd91b160758aeb2d
That's very disturbing, both the 4th Amendment violation, and the secrecy: supposedly, ICE agents were allowed to read but not retain the memo, and oere told not to speak publicly about it.
I very much want to see ICE deport illegals, but that needs to be hone within the Constitution, not by going around it.
agree of course, but I wish they would put out their side of it. For all anyone knows the man refused to change clothes or provide proof of who he was. It makes sense if it is true that the people they were looking for lived there too.
I think that is why Tom Homan has gone to Minnesota. He was a man honored by President Obama and now works for President Trump. I think Noem wasn't a great pick for Trump. I have heard him grumbling about her. She and Bovino were out there so quick with rebuttal, that I don't think all the information had been gathered, making claims I'm not sure they could substantiate.
Protestant churches generally don't take communion and are allergic to inherited ritual. Sounds like the ACLU is arguing that Protestant service is not actually a religious activity.
I was raised Evangelical, and we had communion every Sunday.
Interesting, the Protestant churches I grew up in emphasized individual revelation over communal ritual, and insisted that communion is only a metaphorical memorial, not a supernatural mystery.
Apparently this comes from the Anabaptist tradition, which many Evangelical churches resemble, although I would expect a huge proportion of exception due to the disorganized intellectual lineage inherent to being "non-denominational".
Lutheran and Calvinist churches and their progeny apparently generally do take communion. There are flavors of evangelical churches originating from all three branches. I'm sure there are regional patterns as well.
Mainline Protestants generally take Communion. Evangelical Protestants maybe not.
Interesting. What is mainline? I'm Orthodox now, but grew up in Presbyterian, Methodist, and Calvary Chapel churches and all the non-denominational churches my family members currently go to only do communion in special circumstances like an optional Wednesday service once a month.
Traditional sects that are ritualisticly closer to Rome: Anglican/Episcopalian, (High) Lutheran, Wesleyites.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mainline_Protestant
I was raised in the Baptist church. Communion was dry, icky wafers and grape juice (no alcohol allowed), but it was still Communion.
I was brought up in the Episcopal Church. Communion every Sunday.
Don Lemon and his "protesters" have nothing to worry about. FIRE will come to their rescue. These protesters were exercising their First Amendment right of free speech. The people in the church were only exercising their First Amendment right of religion. Clearly, speech is the only civil liberty worth fighting for since that's the only civil liberty FIRE defends.
What about the church's 1A right to worship? Do only liberals get 1A rights?
Of course the church's 1A right to worship is just as important as liberals 1A right to protest. My point is that FIRE is selective in their defense of civil liberties, they only defend speech and ignore all other civil liberties.
I think FIRE has taken both sides of the free speech issue, both left and right. Therefore they seem balanced. It's just that by far, most of the censoring has come from the left. I don't think in this case they would support the protesters in the church, because this mob invaded private property. This was not a public sidewalk they could protest on legally.
I agree with you on the free speech issue. Once again, my point is that FIRE is selective in their defense of civil liberties, they only defend speech and ignore all other civil liberties.
I find it very ironic that FIRE would defend the protesters freedom of speech rights in this case but not the church's freedom of religion rights.
From their website: "The Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression's mission is to defend and sustain the individual rights of all Americans to free speech and free thought — the most essential qualities of liberty."
So, they're not "ignor[ing] all other civil liberties." Their mission focus is speech/expression.
Why can’t we walk and chew gum at the same time. The treatment of the Hmong man was bad. Apologies should be made. The church thing? How could anyone justify this? Especially public officials. Sick.
in the grand scheme, ok yeah it would sucked to be that guy or the people at the church. bottom line a bunch of people were incommoded just like hundreds of thousands each day and these two instances were selected for social media propaganda. when someone wants me to care about something and they use mass psychosis tactics, I try to do the opposite out of the principle of not rewarding attempts at manipulation.
Good reply. Have been thinking just last night and this morning about how we allow ourselves to be captured by these incidents that in the big scheme of things are not THAT important. Not making out that they don’t matter. They do. But compared to the Pedo’s abusing children? Really? Why can’t we channel the rage towards them? Groups like 764 hardly get a mention. Why?😕
This:
"Keith Ellison declared the protests are protected, saying “none of us are immune to the voice of the public,” to which one user replied, “You heard him. We can now protest in Somali mosques for stealing our money.”
Someone needs to suggest that to Keith Ellison's face.
I completely support free speech and the right to protest.
But it seems to me that our courts and police meed to more vigorously enforce trespassing, assault, and harassment. If leftist mobs are free perpetrate these crimes under the umbrella of an unlimited right to 'protest', this could escalate very badly.
Another example:
Anti-ICE protesters make noise 24/7 at hotels, leading hotels to evict guests working for ICE.
Free speech?
OK, now Pro-ICE protesters go to the *same* hotel, and make noise 24/7, refusing to stop until hotel allows ICE back in.
Free speech, right?
Is this to be the new normal?
There is a difference between free speech, and intimidation tactics, assault, tresspassing, interfering with law enforcement operations, etc.
Leftist mobs are inflaming tensions, with tacit approval and asymmetrical enforcement of Democratic government, based on politics.
The burning down of the Minneapolis police station in 2020 was terrorist type behavior, but was received calmly on CNN as "firey but mostly peaceful" protest. If that is not an example of asymmetric response depending upon politics, I dont know what is. You could not be sending a clearer message to the public: "No criminal act - no matter how severe - committed by the left, should be responded to with alarm".
The guy was hiding kiddie diddlers, fuck him, sad he didn’t freeze to death
Did you notice that the main stream media was rightfully appaled at the treatment of Chongly Thao, but they seemed to endorse the interruption of worship service in the Chrisitan Church including insults of parishioners. That is also appaling yet it is a non-story to the NYT, WaPo etc.
Yes. Why cannot more of us understand that ICE both has a legitimate mandate and is at times alarmingly careless over its execution, that ChongLy Thao was appallingly treated, that Renee Good should not be dead but contributed significantly to that outcome for herself, that screaming at parishioners during their worship is despicable, shooting fish in a barrel?
All these things are true at the same time. That, apparently, is too much for the ideological brain to grasp. But those of us without those blinders can see it pretty clearly.
I think more of us understand this than we think. We're not on the news. We just need to vote more wisely. That's how these (self described) knuckleheads got in office!
The problem is when any remotely wise-tangential options have been carefully weeded out of our options before voting starts, as with the past three general elections. Really since well before.
30-plus years ago I became resigned to the fact that the Democrats I voted for in primaries never made it to the ballot. Thereafter, I became independent and cannot vote in primaries at all.
In 2016, I dreamt of a Paul / Sanders choice (this was before Sanders sold out by performing anilingus on Hillary Clinton on screen before the nation). We got Trump / Clinton.
Enough said, res ipsa loquitur.
It's true. I live in a blue state, and the quality of the Republican candidates has become so poor. It's clear they've given up hope to actually win. Voters suffer, as does our government, when there isn't real competition and choice.
Maine, where I now live, tends to choose moderates as a rule. I don't think anyone could reasonably call Senator Collins a die hard MAGA, nor is Representative Golden hard-woke, though the blue people downstate gave us Janet Mills, who thought keeping Walmart open during COVID merited doing, while churches might not even hold outdoor services across the street, and thinks it essential to expose our schoolgirls to injury via mandatory inclusion of trans people with male hormones, size and intact equipment.
I live in a pretty reliable Republican electoral district, fortunately.
A lot has to do with campaign money. I lived in WA worked as a precinct treasurer as a Republican PCO. I dealt with all their campaign filings and had access to the Democrat campaign filings. I was amazed by all the large-dollar contributions from Indian tribes, Unions, high-tech companies, and PACs. Generally, they had more than a 5:1 advantage. Accomplished individuals are not enthusiastic about spending a year of their life in a difficult situation.
Mirabilis! This just goes to show that Pompei latin (anilingus) ISN'T a dead language!
It lives in the law, medicine, in the Latin liturgy of the Roman Catholic Church (St. Patrick's, in New Orleans' central business/warehouse district, has special dispensation to offer a Latin Mass every Sunday, in the belief that Catholic sailors from round the globe can thus hear, if not their country's native language, at least the native language of their faith), and in perhaps some old and recalcitrant educational institutions.
Latin also lives in the minds of those, like me, who find language endlessly interesting.
Same here. I'm not Catholic but my father taught us to read using dinosaur books. I can't "speak" Latin, but I understand a good it of it to this day.
voting is no good when all you get are shitty choices.
Most people are no longer able to think or feel nuances or shades of gray. Outrage has become the most common response.
I suspect the failings of the public school system are becoming evident. When education is indoctrination rather than teaching critical thinking skills, the population starts to resemble sheep.
National education scores have been in decline for 40 years. Returning responsibility back to the states and counties may improve the situation.
I am 67, and would think shame on myself to retain so adolescent a mindset, as popular as it has become among those who are old enough to know better.
But, if youth is indeed rather wasted on the young, it the more behooves those of us who have passed that stage to ensure the opportunity for maturity is not equally wasted on us.
Plus, I always wanted to grow up to be grown up.
But we are the country of eternal children. A country of Peter Pans. Watching Renee Good mocking LEO or loud protesters invading the church I can’t help thinking that these folks are stuck in their teenage rebellion forever. Not to say that everything is fine on the right side of the divide.
I am slightly older than you. As much as I try to stay young at heart, I noticed that my age is beginning to manifest itself when common sense influences my reaction more and more. Though the weight of life experience and knowledge does not stop my gray-haired and wrinkled neighbors from throwing tantrums -
I live in what is probably one of the most liberal hoods in the country. Moderation has definitely fell out of fashion. If it was ever popular at all.
I never went to nursery school as a child, but I never thought I would live in one as an adult.
of course. I have a healthy respect for law enforcement, but also realize the job can attrack a certain kind of person prone to commit abuses. same with teachers. yeah, you need them, but that position can attract pedos, hence all the backgroumd check stuff they have. and politicians. natural magnet for psychopaths. of couse, we dont have any system in place for them except elections, which the psycho is adept at navigating.
Churches were deemed non essential during Covid and shut down. That ass hat should try that kind of protest in a Catholic Church, where many kids and families of all races and social economics are present.
Or in the Midwest or south, where zillions of attendees carry firearms to defend their freedoms and their lives from the attacks seen daily in Africa and Europe.
2A and 1A go hand in hand!
Are we not supposed to notice that if Minneapolis cooperated with ICE and had turned over the criminals being sought, the Hmong man would have never been disturbed in a case of mistaken identity?
If the agents got it wrong, they got it wrong.
Cops go through the wrong door sometimes. It can’t just be forgotten, but it isn’t like they shot that guy, which has happened a few times. A very, very few times.
[Edited: after seeing Matt’s comment (I was not aware he had written this piece or I would have been nicer…) I was arguing across models as we used to say. His point about the warrant being needed was directed at the forced entry(& correct). I was looking at it as a requirement for a detainer or arrest (where a judicial warrant is NOT needed). I hope Matt accepts my apology (reading comprehension is non-negotiable for me hence my Mea culpa). I’m going back through & editing this comment without noting my corrections because of the limits of this app or my skill in using it. Just so you know, there would be a ton of redlining. I address his valid critique of the warrantless breaking in of Thao’s door in ponderous detail in 2 responses to his reply to me; if you are interested in the topic of ICE authority, warrants & the Constitution, & my hopelessly impractical proposed solution you can find my replies to Matt’s replies below.]
ICE agents operate as an element of administrative due process, part of the Executive, not Judicial branch. They are not under the jurisdiction of Article 3 courts but rather the immigration courts established under Title 8 of the USC. ICE agents do not need or serve Art 3 judicial warrants to make public arrests or detainers. They are authorized by Congress to detain & remove illegal aliens lawfully under Final Orders of Removal (issued by an administrative Immigration Judge or IJ, or an order from the Board of Immigration Appeals or BIA), a Warrant of Removal/Deportation (Form I-205) signed by a DHS/ICE official or the USAG, as well as an Administrative Arrest Warrant (Form I-200), Expedited Removal Order, or Reinstated Removal Order also issued by a DHS official or IJ. ICE agents may also detail illegal aliens based on a Record of Deportable/Inadmissible Alien (Form I-213; an administrative form), Criminal Conviction Records establishing removability, or IDENT/biometric match tied to DHS immigration records. None of these require an Art 3 judge to sign anything, especially a judicial warrant.
They may also go to a suspect’s domicile to question & detain them but cannot force entry without exigent circumstances or a judicial warrant.
ICE may also accept custody of an illegal alien from a holding facility run by state or local authorities using a Form I-247A, the ICE immigration detainer form (“Immigration Detainer – Notice of Action”).
This last is the linchpin of the current brouhaha in Minneapolis & elsewhere. An “ICE detainer” simply asks local authorities to hold a suspect already arrested for some other state or local crime & wanted by ICE for a separate immigration violation for 48 hours allowing for a safe & easy transfer of custody. The problem is that “sanctuary” locales prohibit their LEOs holding wanted illegal aliens to turn over to ICE, so they end up back on the street necessitating ICE searching them out, going to their homes or places of work. Rather than a quiet, safe, peaceful transfer in a county jail, officers must put their lives in jeopardy to pick up people outside in uncontrolled environments. There, anti-ICE agitators (who have no idea if the person ICE seeks is a Colombian drug lord or child sex abuser or drunk driver) put themselves in the position of being arrested or worse violating the law interfering with government law enforcement activities.
Looking for people outside of jail also greatly increases the likelihood others will be caught up in the net. If Juan, released with no cash bail pending his trial for sex trafficking, is looked for at his last known address, where Mario & Julio who are also in the US illegally are hanging with him, they will be detained & deported, too. Had Juan been transferred at the lockup, Mario & Julio might have lived in the US months or years longer.
As far as Thao’s residence, it helps explain why ICE went there that one of the actual suspects used to live there. It is unclear how long ago the actual target moved out AFAIK.
So I could have written the sentence better, but the issue was the forced entry into the home, for which they do need a warrant, unless they claimed exigent circumstances, and I didn’t hear that. The family claimed the agents entered “without presenting a warrant” and the public releases from the DHS didn’t address the issue.
Obviously ICE does not need warrants to detain illegal/undocumented immigrants, but it can’t be breaking doors down of private residences, can it? It sounds like this is an area of expertise for you, but I covered a lot of these cases in the past and always understood that a warrant was needed for an entry. Is that not right?
I think the intensity over this incident is misplaced.
1. Some ICE captures will go wrong or not the way we’d like.
2. The number of times this happens will be in proportion to how many captures are necessary.
3. The level of upset should be proportional to the number of times this happens NOT each and every time.
Now, why is this going to occur more times than we would like to see? Why are so many ICE captures necessary? Unless you live in a world where perfection is the norm problems will occur but the hand-wringing should be proportional i.e. reality based.
Reduce the number of bad ICE events? Rid expulsion of criminals or don’t allow uncontrolled entry into the country in the first place. Take your pick.
“… don’t allow uncontrolled entry into the country in the first place.”
That’s where this went off the rails: Biden.
Meanwhile, previous Democrat regimes still enforced, deported, put kids in cages, etc. more than Trump from what I can tell. Yet they face virtually zero criticism, even from within their own ranks, because the red and blue bases are fucking cults.
https://thenationaldesk.com/news/americas-news-now/democrats-reversing-course-on-illegal-immigration-over-the-past-three-decades-clinton-obama#
Matt, the fact that you continue to engage in public dialogue is one of the reasons we trust you so much. That, and this feeling that you would never willingly or knowingly lie to us. You are a classic journalist—polite, careful with your words, but utterly relentless in pursuit of information.
If I hadn’t had the gift to be raised by a woman of such character with a journalism degree I might have seen things differently. She embarrassed me more than once in public because she sensed exaggeration or deception. It didn’t matter who it was or how high their rank. She was reasonable but in the pursuit of information she was the embodiment of this Shakespeare quote “Though she be but little, she is fierce.” Thank you for what you are doing, Matt, you’re really one of kind.
God, I hate writing something lengthy here only to lose it all with an accidental swipe on my phone. Ah, well. Starting over…
Matt - You’re right that I missed your focus on the actual break-in; I was more focused on the legality of detainer & removal in general absent an Art 3 arrest warrant. I also didn’t realize you, Matt, were writing this; you were not listed by name as the writer when I saw it.
I think you are probably the finest investigative reporter out there today & in no way are you a purveyor of misinformation. I sincerely apologize for my misunderstanding. I rely on you for the investigative reporting few do, especially without a partisan agenda (although I’m not sanguine about you accepting that small jet from Qatar… 😁). I will edit (if possible) my prior comment to clarify this & refer to this apology & clarification.
My focus was trying to correct the rampant misinformation that others spread or nod along with (especially on social media) concerning ICE powers & documents legally needed to lawfully detain someone. I was thinking detainee warrant per se, while you, Matt, were writing more about the forced unconsented entry. I’m not as concerned about the claims Thao was taken outside with just a child’s blanket in bitter cold. Had this been a police felony arrest, under similar circumstances a suspect might well have been treated the same way without civil exposure. Often the courts look at such things as de minimus intrusions on rights (fact dependent, as all of this is).
The nonconsensual breaking in to his home is another matter.
Here’s the crux of the entry situation as I see it. Forgive me in advance for another ponderous discussion, but there is a significant conflict between constitutional theory, SCOTUS case law, IRL immigration enforcement, & judicial resources.
Absent exigent circumstances (which I don’t think we have enough information at present to conclusively evaluate), breaking down Thao’s door was a violation of his 4A rights.
Does he have a civil cause of action against the agents individually? Yes, under Bivens v. Six Unknown Federal Narcotics Agents, 403 U.S. 388 (1971)
“That damages may be obtained for injuries consequent upon a violation of the Fourth Amendment by federal officials should hardly seem a surprising proposition. Historically, damages have been regarded as the ordinary remedy for an invasion of personal interests in liberty.” (Id. at 395.)
So what else is there to say? As Paul Harvey used to say, “& now, for the rest of the story.”
I, of course, have an elegant solution.
Let me set it out then describe at length why this is needed to address the concerns you raise & I share. The beauty is it does not require congressional action. In theory. But they could certainly make it cleaner if they could just get along for 5 minutes. It would take a 2-page bill (really 1 page but this is Congress). I volunteer to draft it. No charge. Maybe just no IRS audits for a while?
The problem with the cut & dried analysis under existing law above is that it does not address issues facing LEOs IRL (in particular ICE agents), it leaves homes a safe space for criminals (“Ollie Ollie oxen free!”), & solutions threaten to clog our already overburdened court system or die in committee in Congress.
Tl;dr - what we need are a new set of procedures for judges/magistrates who follow an efficient procedure using existing paperwork to process immigration arrest or detainer warrants. ICE may already arrest or detain in public on Title 8 civil authority or final removal orders, but home entry without consent requires a judicial arrest warrant, obtainable through streamlined magistrate procedures.
To first principles (apologies in advance for the length, but my goal is to provide information people can use or rebut in debate):
1. The court system constitutionally must be separate from the law enforcement system, so arrest warrants must be generated by an independent judiciary rather than higher-ups in DOJ or DHS:
“The Fourth Amendment’s protection consists in requiring that inferences be drawn by a neutral and detached magistrate instead of by the officer engaged in the competitive enterprise of ferreting out crime.” (Johnson v. United States, 333 U.S. 10, 13–14 (1948).)
2. The deportation element of immigration enforcement is a civil, not criminal action:
“A deportation proceeding is a purely civil action to determine eligibility to remain in this country, not to punish an unlawful entry.” (INS v. Lopez-Mendoza, 468 U.S. 1032, 1038 (1984).)
3. It is a violation of the 4A for law enforcement (including ICE) to break into a person’s domicile without permission, exigent circumstances, or a judicial warrant.
“[F]or Fourth Amendment purposes, an arrest warrant founded on probable cause implicitly carries with it the limited authority to enter a dwelling in which the suspect lives when there is reason to believe the suspect is within.” (Payton v. New York, 445 U.S. 573, 603 (1980).
4. The variety of ICE documentation that makes an ICE arrest or detainer lawful are not the same as an Art 3 arrest warrant.
(Continued)
2/2
You often hear ICE (or Trump, but I repeat myself) critics say that illegal immigration is a civil not criminal matter. Yes & no. As the SCOTUS above noted, the deportation proceeding is a civil action, as are other aspects of Title 8. Congress established an administrative track for dealing with deportation as well as other immigration matters. Going along with the Separation of Powers (tm), criminal prosecutions need a neutral adjudicating party (the Judicial) separate from the law enforcement part of government (the Executive, here, ICE) & the law-making part (the Legislative, when they can be bothered [you may note a bit of contempt for Congress from me]).
Seems clear enough. Since deportation is a civil matter (intending to remedy a social or political problem), then some claim ICE has no police powers. “You can’t arrest me! I’m an AmCit!” Again, not so much.
In spite of much of the Immigration & Naturalization Act enforcement being an administrative function, the immigration statutes (Title 8, or 8 USC …) include multiple immigration-related felony & misdemeanor crimes.
1. Illegal entry (misdemeanor) — 8 U.S.C. § 1325(a)
2. Illegal reentry after removal (felony) — 8 U.S.C. § 1326(a), (b)
3. Failure to depart after final removal order (felony) — 8 U.S.C. § 1253(a)
4. Alien smuggling / transporting / harboring — 8 U.S.C. § 1324(a)
5. Encouraging or inducing illegal entry or residence — 8 U.S.C. § 1324(a)(1)(A)(iv)
There are other statutes in the U.S.C. that are related to immigration, such as lying to an immigration officer (18 U.S.C. 1001).
Then there is the statute that many ICE agent ”protestors” need to be aware of:
18 U.S.C. § 111 — Assaulting, resisting, or impeding certain officers or employees
(a) In general.—Whoever—
(1) forcibly assaults, resists, opposes, impedes, intimidates, or interferes with any person designated in section 1114 of this title while engaged in or on account of the performance of official duties; or…
shall, where the acts in violation of this section constitute only simple assault, be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than one year, or both [a misdemeanor], and where such acts involve physical contact with the victim of that assault or the intent to commit another felony, be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 8 years, or both [a felony].
(b) Enhanced penalty.—Whoever, in the commission of any acts described in subsection (a), uses a deadly or dangerous weapon (including a weapon intended to cause death or danger but that fails to do so by reason of a defective component) or inflicts bodily injury, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both.” [This can include a car; end citation.]
MN (or anywhere) protestors who attempt to block or ram ICE or CBP agents who are performing their duties can be arrested & if found guilty spend 1-20 years in prison. I suspect we will start seeing many more such arrests of people, AmCits or not, who attempt to block or use violence against federal agents. This could get real ugly, real quick.
Are ICE officers able to arrest people charged with these crimes? Yes.
8 USC § 1357. Powers of immigration officers and employees
(a) Powers without warrant
Any officer or employee of the Service authorized under regulations prescribed by the Attorney General shall have power without warrant-
(1) to interrogate any alien or person believed to be an alien as to his right to be or to remain in the United States;
(2) to arrest any alien who in his presence or view is entering or attempting to enter the United States in violation of any law or regulation made in pursuance of law regulating the admission, exclusion, expulsion, or removal of aliens, or to arrest any alien in the United States, if he has reason to believe that the alien so arrested is in the United States in violation of any such law or regulation and is likely to escape before a warrant can be obtained for his arrest, but the alien arrested shall be taken without unnecessary delay for examination before an officer of the Service having authority to examine aliens as to their right to enter or remain in the United States;
(3) within a reasonable distance from any external boundary of the United States, to board and search for aliens any vessel within the territorial waters of the United States and any railway car, aircraft, conveyance, or vehicle, and within a distance of twenty-five miles from any such external boundary to have access to private lands, but not dwellings, for the purpose of patrolling the border to prevent the illegal entry of aliens into the United States;
(4) to make arrests for felonies which have been committed and which are cognizable under any law of the United States regulating the admission, exclusion, expulsion, or removal of aliens, if he has reason to believe that the person so arrested is guilty of such felony and if there is likelihood of the person escaping before a warrant can be obtained for his arrest, but the person arrested shall be taken without unnecessary delay before the nearest available officer empowered to commit persons charged with offenses against the laws of the United States; and
(5) to make arrests-
(A) for any offense against the United States, if the offense is committed in the officer's or employee's presence, or
(B) for any felony cognizable under the laws of the United States, if the officer or employee has reasonable grounds to believe that the person to be arrested has committed or is committing such a felony… [End citation.]
Are people charged with any of the statutory crimes listed above tried in immigration courts? No. They are tried in Art 3 criminal courts for these charged crimes.
So the ICE officer is caught between being a civil enforcement cop & a federal criminal cop.
Given the above, what can be done to satisfy the separation of powers, give ICE the tools it needs to effectively enforce the laws Congress passed & both Democrat & Republican presidents signed into law, while not hopelessly overburdening the Art 3 courts? & what is possible without Congress passing any new laws (which, when it comes to immigration, probably isn’t going to happen)?
ICE needs a streamlined warrant approval system to obtain Art 3 arrest warrants as needed without Congress adding a new court system (like FISA) or overburdening the already stressed court system.
Currently, state & local police officers have such a system in place where they can establish probable cause (PC) for the issuance of an arrest warrant electronically (& receive enforceable judicial warrants back electronically) quickly.
Why does this matter?
We want to defend our constitutional rights while at the same time give ICE & CBP the tools they need (as well as guardrails). While it is simple, safe (for all), & efficient for law enforcement agencies to honor ICE detainers (“You arrested Bing Tran for spousal abuse. We want him for violating 8 U.S.C. § 1326(a). Here’s our form I-247A establishing PC. Thanks!”), sanctuary jurisdictions order their LEOs not to honor them. That requires apprehending suspects elsewhere. Instead of two ICE officers cuffing Mr. Tran & loading him into their car in an underground garage, 20 agents in 6 vehicles have to descend on a neighborhood or workplace & deal with obstructive & sometimes violent mobs. The odds of someone getting hurt or killed like Renee Good increases exponentially.
The reality is that many illegal aliens (the designation found in the U.S. Code) will be released back into the world where ICE will need to hunt them down. Many others with criminal records are not currently in jail, so arrests in public, in work places, & in domiciles are necessary. Should ICE agents have the same tools available to them as street cops?
We need a safe, efficient system to put ICE agents in the same constitutional arena as other cops with valid arrest warrants so cases like Payton control lawful arrests & detainers.
ICE officers need a way to get judicial warrants quickly & without clogging the court system.
How does such a system get put in place absent (unlikely) congressional action?
In a Thao-type case, the SCOTUS could hold something like:
• Home entry without consent (breaking in) to make an immigration arrest requires prior judicial authorization under the 4A;
• DOJ/DHS/ICE paperwork (administrative warrants, detainers, removal orders) do not satisfy the warrant requirement to make unconsented entry;
• PC for such a warrant may be established through existing sworn ICE forms currently used to get administrative detainer approval, including but not limited to forms I-213, I-200, I-205, so long as a Art 3 judge independently evaluates them.
In holding this, the SCOTUS would be hewing to the Constitution. The SCOTUS would then vacate the judgment below (if necessary) and remand back to the lower court for further proceedings consistent with its opinion. That court would implement a practice to facilitate ICE warrant applications, & other courts across the country would preemptively or as the cases arose also follow this constitutional guidance.
This would not be a unique massive change for courts without an act of Congress or Executive order. For example, Brady v. Maryland, 373 U.S. 83 (1963) required prosecutors to disclose exculpatory evidence, Miranda v. Arizona, 384 U.S. 436 (1966) (“You have the right to remain silent…) caused country-wide retraining of cops & standards for the court, etc.
I can dream. If only I hadn’t lost CJ Roberts’ cell number.
Shouldn't you have investigated this before writing these statements? And again "the family said"?? "The family claimed" , it seems there
may be MORE to the story. Taking short cuts to get a narrative out will tarnish your brand. I.e CNN , MSNOW and MSM
BE BETTER!
In every police action we have to assume that police behavior is constitutional because our opinion doesn't matter. Whether a specific entry or seizure is constitutional is determined by a court at a later date. It might go all the way to the supreme court and be years before it is resolved.
Until that is determined to be unconstitutional, we have to assume and act as if it is constitutional--because if we don't then we have anarchy and there is no law.
This why this talk of warrants is so fucking dangerous--and purposefully so. It is to encourage lawlessness and anarchy.
As citizens we have no ability to adjudicate the issue because we are not judges. Encouraging people to decide the issue of constitutionally of police action on the ground is massively irresponsible behavior.
And at best, anyone's jawboning on this issue can only be a prediction.
--edit: and -> at, too ->to
Calling Matt part of the “misinformation machine” is outrageous. He may not be right 💯 but he is one of the BEST independent journalists out there and we are lucky to have him. Ps He is teaching people. A lot Lester!
Thank you. I just retracted my "like" for the article. While it is clear that filtered information is a big problem, the context and corrections you have furnished should have been included. I watch police bodycam arrests on YouTube as a hobby. What LEOs put up with on a regular basis is staggering!
I watch those too, and one of the frequent incidents is drivers telling officers “I don’t have to show you ID or tell you my name.” (Hilarity ensues.).
If Mr. Chongly went that route when he could have
easily identified himself as an American citizen, then I can understand why it may have taken a ride to convince him.
Appreciate the information you share, but not your claim that Matt is “part of the misinformation machine”. That is not true. Maybe you said that in frustration or anger? He asks you a question. Hope you respond as you seem knowledgeable and I would be interested to know the answer.
Matt Taibbi is perhaps a bit like Donald Trump: not perfect, sometimes does things you disagree with, but pretty much the only alternative to something far far worse.
I have a lot of respect for Matt Taibbi. My comment was not intended to critique him.
I do too! I pay for a subscription because I think Matt Taibbi is doing important work that few others are doing.
And that's why I don't "expect" or "need" to agree with everything he says or believes. I want Taibbi to be Taibbi, an independent voice, which means I expect and welcome differing, challenging, opinions.
How will I learn anything if all I hear are echoes of my own voice?
Same here. Couldn’t agree more.
But Taibbi didn't say "without a judicial warrant," he said "without a warrant." ICE clearly did not have any of what you helpfully mention: "Final Orders of Removal (issued by an administrative Immigration Judge or IJ, or an order from the Board of Immigration Appeals or BIA), a Warrant of Removal/Deportation (Form I-205) signed by a DHS/ICE official or the USAG, as well as an Administrative Arrest Warrant (Form I-200), Expedited Removal Order, or Reinstated Removal Order also issued by a DHS official or IJ. ICE agents may also detail illegal aliens based on a Record of Deportable/Inadmissible Alien (Form I-213; an administrative form), Criminal Conviction Records establishing removability, or IDENT/biometric match tied to DHS immigration records." They had the wrong man, meaning they didn't have any authorization to take him. I've heard people incorrectly outraged about ICE actions "without a judicial warrant," but Taibbi got didn't do this.
Taibbi didn’t write this just to be clear.
No, I did... this feature however will be shorter and written by a rotation of people in future so... fixing the byline now.
hank you for the clarification. Who is The Fine Print?
Amen Lester!! My hats off to you for saying it better than I could!
I want to add, that every "undocumented immigrant" is an Illegal Alien . AKA a criminal!
Holy overreaction Batman - not everyone who gets something wrong is part of “the misinformation machine” or whatever the fuck. Go touch grass.
Please see my new response to Matt. I agree with you.
“If Juan, released with no cash bail pending his trial for sex trafficking, is looked for at his last known address, where Mario & Julio who are also in the US illegally are hanging with him, they will be detained & deported, too.”
Yes, but in this case Juan wasn’t even there and it was an American citizen who was detained.
ICE has the authority to do this under the USC?
They should apologize to the wrongly identified man. None of us know why the man was not allowed to put clothes on. Maybe he didn't want to, who knows? Regardless, ICE should just be honest and say they made a mistake and apologize. I notice the family has a GoFundMe. And, barging into churches to pass your moral judgment while children are actively hiding their faces and crying and then FOLLOWING THEM TO THEIR CARS is beyond reprehensible and it says a lot about Minnesota that they have not been arrested or charged with state crimes. It bothers me that we have no control over what we see. Because no one wants to tell the whole truth from every angle, no one knows anything. The professional journalists are gone.
Platforms aside, the competing narratives are camouflaging the real bottom line. Dems have no choice but to fight each and every deportation, as if their lives depend on it, because politically they do.
As even the NYT recently acknowledged, Reapportionment is going to make winning the House and WH much more difficult for Dems, going forward. Millions of voting Americans have fled from Blue States to Red ones. The wave may have slowed a bit, but it is not reversing. Biden migrants have greatly helped replace fleeing Blue state residents. The new arrivals cannot vote, but they count for the Census, which will determine Apportionment
A byproduct of the Big Sort, has been the Far Left wing of the Dem Party running roughshod in some Blue Cities, with more to follow. Many Blue cities abandoned by Reps and moderates due to taxes, cost, crime or single Party rule, now lack any real opposition. Without an opposition Party, Socialists on Steroids will soon be the norm, not the exception. That is unlikely to aid Dems in 2026, and it definitely will not help their 2028 WH aspirations.
Moreover, even if SCOTUS misses the deadline for this year's Midterms, a ruling on the Voting Rights Act will arrive eventually, and when it does, it is likely to aid Reps.
Democratic leadership is not stupid. They understand the above. That is why they work so hard to convince Dem Mothers, even briefly, wrongly detaining a legally immigrant or citizen, is worse then allowing a convicted migrant child rapist to emerge from prison, free to stalk his next sodomy victim. In Dem world, the overriding priority is not removal of criminal migrants, but removal of as few total migrants, as possible.
How many minutes will the filibuster last when Schumer takes over?
"Minutes"??!!
Don Lemon is such a self-indulgent virtue signaling fraud, often fired, always banging on the white supremacy drum, racists and Nazis ad nauseum. Pretending to do journalism.
Don Lemon was never a journalist.
He is and always was entertainment: "oh look honey, that catty gay with the fruity name is slinging sly zingers on CNN again! It's like we're back in the '70s watching Hollywood Squares but this time Paul Lynde is *a black!* He's a black *and* a gay honey, oh I feel so progressive watching him slay!"
Don Lemon is turning into Jesse Jackson.
He wishes. He's turning into Jussie Smollett.
Dorsey is a weasel. He knows what he’s stoking.
Talk about ENTITLED!
This reads like Chatbot slop. In less time that it took to squeeze out this "what others are saying crap" you could have done very basic research into this story.
This is from just a little basic research.
From ChongLy Scott Thao's gofundme that has already raised $86,928 and counting (there is so much money at play in this game)
"Without showing a warrant or asking for identification..."
https://www.gofundme.com/f/support-chonglys-family-after-ice-raid-trauma
Here is ChongLy Scott Thao contradicting his own gofundme:
"...they asked me if I had my ID and I go yeah it's in the room and then my daughter in law tried to get my ID but they didn't want to see it no more."
https://www.reddit.com/r/minnesota/comments/1qi2ew6/us_citizen_shares_his_experience_of_being_taken/
And here is Here is ChongLy Scott Thao with another story about his ID:
"They drove me all the way to Minneapolis I don't know where. My son grabbed my ID show it to them. They just said OK your're good. So they free me."
How did his son find him when in custody when even he didn't know where he was? And his son shows up with his ID and and then that was the end of it?
https://www.linkedin.com/posts/associated-press_federal-immigrations-agents-forced-open-a-activity-7419483454280720384-uVff
----
Here ChongLy Scott Thao is quoted as saying he told his daughter in law not to open the door.
"ChongLy “Scott” Thao told the AP that his daughter-in-law woke him up from a nap Sunday afternoon and said that U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents were banging at the door of his residence in St. Paul. He told her not to open it."
https://www.mprnews.org/story/2026/01/20/chongly-scott-thao-says-ice-removed-him-from-home-in-his-underwear-after-warrantless-search
Here ChongLy Scott Thao says,
"...about 1:30, daughter in law came in the room and said that, there's an ICE out there so I lock my bedroom..."
https://www.reddit.com/r/minnesota/comments/1qi2ew6/us_citizen_shares_his_experience_of_being_taken/
Make this make sense as to why he has now locked himself in his bedroom. He knows he is a citizen. Why is he hiding in his locked bedroom?
No one wants to fight naked. This is primal shit.
How in the world between the time he knows ICE is there and they bust down the door has he not gotten dressed. What the hell is he doing in his locked bedroom the whole time--besides getting dressed? Destroying evidence? What the fuck else does he have to do besides get dressed? It takes 15 seconds tops to put on pants and a shirt.
Make this make sense.
All of this bothered me. Why was Matt Taibbi accepting the "testimony" of others unquestioning? Liberal slant &bias? One (X) is almost FULLY documented on video. The other is based on one sided statements (bias?) and iphone videos?? ICE did not apologize, really? Did they? Didn't they? Should they? Did Matt Taibbi try to get statements from ICE officials??
Racket =Journalism , doesn't seem so, more like more propaganda?
Just asking, inquiring minds (at least mine) want to know.
And just like the Good video we are presented with a very edited and scripted version of events coming straight from the protesters themselves.
And just like the Good video we can infer for investigatory purposes that what has been edited out does not support the narrative.
I am suspicious that we only see the door knocked down because time between the knock and announce, and breaking the door down does not logically support him still being undressed.
It is very suspicious that he is not dressed. Again what else does he have to get done besides get dressed and get his ID together? It's cold walking around your house in your underwear during the winter--and no one wants to fight naked.
How many seconds between the knock and announce and the door knock down before him still being in his underwear is beyond credibility?
Even assuming he needs a couple minutes to destroy evidence--it doesn't take very long until him still being undressed is a very purposeful choice.
Give the dude a break, he's just trying to make a little I $ off the ICE mistake and his inconvenience. I can imagine being discombobulated in this scenario, and I imagine he changed the scenario a bit to jerk more heartstrings and wallets.
By his own words he is lying about the ID, and here he is admitting that he refused to be identified by taking his picture and facial recognition.
"They tried to take a photo of me, but I didn't want to."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Iq1cFkK6qw
(this is better version of this interview)
Besides confirming part of the government's story--it's hard to call this a mistake. You can't just let people go when they refuse to be identified when serving a warrant. His own actions by his own admission caused his own detainment in order to identify him.
He got a big payday, and it cost the government a bunch of money to figure out what could have been determined in minutes had he cooperated.
Thanks for the illuminating follow-up. Alas, this line of questioning takes more time than Tik Tok allows so this added dimension will never see the light of day.
I’ll tell you what makes sense, $80 thousand in GoFundMe…that’s what makes sense…headlines.
He’s a lying cunt, pretty straightforward
Wasn’t Dorsey completely complicit with the censorship industrial complex?
Maybe he’s not the best single source to tap for commentary on a political divide in social media?
Dorsey and the odious Vijaya Gadde, general counsel and the head of legal, policy, and trust at Twitter.
He complained about it quietly but was too weak to deal with it.
When confronted with indirect implications of it on twitter before he sold twitter (and thus way before the twitter files existed to prove anything) he responded with the Godfather meme of Vito Corleone crying over seeing his dead and mutilated son's body with the original quote of "Look at how they massacured my boy!" referring to the board of twitter and other people who had a controll over twitter policy that was eventually revealed to be used for censorship.
It looked more like a case of nonfeasance.
He didn’t know how to solve the problem so he let it continue.
The two stories are simply not comparable in terms of outrage.
There's no evidence that ICE was intentionally malicious in pursuing its sex offenders, and if they'd had the right guy (or he wasn't a Protected Class(TM)), the outrage would be nonexistent.
But this church invasion is unprecedented and horrible, the mainstream endorsement of it is a separate horror, and the muted response from right-wing institutions is a third.
Does Matt Taibbi mean to suggest that gross disparity in actual wrongness is another feature of the partisan divide?
If ICE did in fact break down Thao's door without a warrant, that's illegal and it needs to be punished. The Fourth Amendment matters.
The Church invasion is a different kind of horrible, because it targeted the pastor for being a member of ICE, *and* it may have terroistically threatened his parishioners too. It wasn't by government actors, but by what's effectively a vigilante group of leftists attempting to intimidate those they disagree with.
The Church invasion amounts to a stalking/harassment/disruption by private citizens against the private persona of an ICE affiliated pastor.
The state barging in and terrorizing the wrong people (which keeps happening) is totally and completely unacceptable, and must stop.
I agree that both are bad, but the individual actors of the leftists invading the church aren't public policy, and aren't being protected with "full immunity" by the current gov in power.
Hopefully illegals rape your family
"Somewhere in the middle"
https://substack.com/@somewhereinthemiddle
replied to me,
> Hopefully illegals rape your family
I'm not going to dignify that with a reply, but I do want to document that it was said.
I believe Matt's point was just to report how the different sides see things, not make any judgment calls.
The MSM endorsement of church invasion is indeed a separate horror.
And why aren’t they bothered? My guess is bc none of them go to any church, so no biggie.
Suppose this had been a mosque that had been invaded with chanting protestors? I'll bet a week's pay the coverage would have been different. (Or a temple.)
If I’m a pastor I now hire armed security to stand outside my church to protect my flock. I’m sorry but this isn’t activism. This is mob rule and it’s time to stand up for our civil liberties that get stomped on because fear creates silence.
I’m only on X, but I saw both stories. One reason for that is even if you are in one camp or another, if there is a story that is bad for your camp you usually see people in your camp explaining why it isn’t a big deal or the situation was misreported.
That is true on the Right, but not nearly so much on the Left.
100%. If you follow left/independent voices on X, as well as right/independent voices, you see both.
The thing is, "Bluesky brain" is tiny, tiny fraction of the population. No one I know uses it (in NYC) and I certainly never see real reporting linked from there. The anti-woke left doesn't live there, neither do independents.
However, it is an interesting observation, because if you follow voices like Greenwald, Dropsite News, etc on X, in addition to Trump Admin officials or right wing commentary, this isn't a problem. Kinda shows that Taibbi isn't following any left-ish voices on X....
I always automatically hear "Bluski" in my mind's ear. They should have made Democrats the red party, in keeping with their communist sympathies.
The church activism doesn’t pass the purity test. If it had been an all black church and an angry mob of white protesters disrupted services, there would be outrage. A Jewish temple and Palestinian activists. Use any example you want of a group of people practicing their religion. We hold religious services of any kind to be especially sacred because that is exactly WHY America was founded, because of religious persecution in England.
Are We Getting the Full Story in Minneapolis? 15 Reader Pushbacks to the Racket Report Taibbi Shared. https://turfseer.substack.com/p/are-we-getting-the-full-story-in
Thanks - useful highlighting.