Transcript - America This Week, Apr 11, 2025: "We Did Get Fooled Again"

In 1992, Bill Clinton helped wipe out a century of labor battles through embrace of China. This week, lifetime tariff proponent Bernie Sanders launched a sequel. Plus, "Faith of Our Fathers," by PKD

Matt Taibbi: Welcome to America this week. I’m Matt Taibbi.

Walter Kirn: And I’m Walter Kern.

Matt Taibbi: How are you doing, Walter?

Walter Kirn: Doing well. Spring is getting its very tiny claws into the turf of Montana and about to stand up on its feet, and I couldn’t be happier because I live by the sun. I’m like an orchid in a Raymond Chandler novel. I need constant heat. I don’t generate my own.

Matt Taibbi: We’re all becoming like orchids in a Raymond Chandler novel, sadly.

Walter Kirn: Yeah. But yeah, I’m well.

Matt Taibbi: Good, good. Excellent. Yeah, the seasonal effective thing also works more and more on me every year, and this year it’s still cold in New Jersey, so I’m a little bummed, but busy week and man, is there a lot to talk about. I keep saying this. I always think that I’ve seen it all, and then something happens to make you realize that there’s always another level for things to descend to. Now, there was a lot of turmoil this week. Walter, do you have any overall impressions, first of all, about the tariff controversy, which has spanned a number of different stages this week, but basically has gone from being universally condemned to suddenly people quasi accepting it, to what exactly?

Walter Kirn: Well, I mean, at the risk of repeating myself, I said on Monday night that I think Trump had found the on and off lever in American politics and finance, and it was this tariff business. It’s a power that he, as the executive, holds and he can decide to wield as he chooses. He, in his traditional form, made maximum demands or big demands. He actually characterized them as moderate, considering the injustices and imbalances that he was attempting to write or correct. But in any case, we had at the end of last week a full scale, almost COVID level panic about the world economy being destroyed by these tariff proposals.

Matt Taibbi: Specifically the equity markets. But yeah.

Walter Kirn: Yeah, specifically the stock markets, which suddenly became the focus of all democratic passion and anxiety after having, for a long time been the butt of their disapproval that America lived and died for this capitalist index that didn’t reflect well-being and the plight of the middle class and the worker. But when it went down as a proxy for Donald Trump hatred, it seemed just too perfect. They all grabbed onto it, not realizing that if you write it down, you’ll have to write it up.

And then the fabled Black Monday, Jim Kramer had all of a sudden predicted on Sunday in his inimitable inverse way, it was a buy signal basically to anyone in the know, the market stabilized for a couple of days at a lower level than they’d been. And then yesterday they shot up in a spectacular fashion and almost melt up, the funniest moment of which was I think Goldman Sachs issuing a recession advisory to its clients. And then an hour later, after it seemed that Trump was going to pause the suite of tariffs that did not apply to China, he said, “Because hey, they’ve all come to the table. They want to negotiate, they’re good people. We’re going to get deals, so I don’t need to institute these instantly.” Well, how dare he? An hour later, Goldman Sachs is withdrawing and revising its guidance about a recession. The market’s shooting up, and we have a pretty hilarious scene in the US Congress where a congressman who is grilling a trade emissary.

Matt Taibbi: Yeah. So what you’re referring to Walter, there’s a Nevada Democrat named Steven Horsford who is in the middle of giving the US trade ambassador Jamieson Greer I think is his name, as they say in football, giving him the business, and suddenly word comes in that the tariffs have been paused, and now he’s pissed because he can’t yell at him about that. So let’s roll that tape.

Steven Horsford: Mr. Trade Representative, are you aware that the tariffs have been paused?

Jamieson Greer: I am, yes.

Steven Horsford: When were you made aware of that?

Jamieson Greer: I understood the decision was made a few minutes ago-

Steven Horsford: Sitting here.

Jamieson Greer: ... under discussion.

Steven Horsford: Sitting here. Under discussion. So did you know that this was under discussion, and why did you not include that as part of your opening remarks?

Jamieson Greer: So typically what I don’t do is divulge contents of my discussions with the president.

Steven Horsford: What are the details of the pause?

Jamieson Greer: Well, my understanding is that because so many countries have decided not to retaliate, we’re going to have about 90 days.

Steven Horsford: Excuse me? China increased their tariffs on the United States. Trump blinked.

Jamieson Greer: Sir?

Steven Horsford: What do you know about this pause? What are the details of it?

Jamieson Greer: Well, the details as I understand it, is that China continues to retaliate. Other countries didn’t retaliate. The president two or three days ago said we wanted to negotiate with those countries that asked for meetings. That’s what we’re doing. We’ve had discussions.

Steven Horsford: What are the details? How long is the pause? How many days? How many weeks?

Jamieson Greer: I understand it’s 90 days. I haven’t spoken to the president since I’ve been in the-

Steven Horsford: So the Trade Representative hasn’t spoken to the president of the United states-

Matt Taibbi: Because he’s here.

Steven Horsford: ... about a global reordering of trade.

Jamieson Greer: Yes, I have. I’ve just been in the hearing with you.

Steven Horsford: But yet he announced it on a tweet. WTF. Who’s in charge?

Jamieson Greer: President of the United States is in charge.

Steven Horsford: And what do you know about those details?

Jamieson Greer: Well, as I mentioned-

Steven Horsford: It looks like your boss just pulled the rug out from under you and paused the tariffs, the taxes on the American people, with no strategy.

Matt Taibbi: The taxes on the American people. Okay.

Walter Kirn: So as I said on Twitter, this has a Hitler just finds out in his bunker that tariffs have been paused quality, taking off his glasses. WTF. Whatever that is in German.

Matt Taibbi: You got to do this. Somebody has to do the downfall spoof, right?

Walter Kirn: Vat de fook.

Matt Taibbi: Exactly. Mein Führer, it turns out the tariffs have been paused. So, okay, so where they’re going with this, they’re mad about it no matter what happens.

Walter Kirn: Right.

Matt Taibbi: And we can talk about what exactly Trump is doing with these tariffs in a minute, but what’s remarkable is the response and this whole idea that the real damage here-

Walter Kirn: Why is the dude upset? Isn’t he happy now? World economy righted. He had already loaded his cannon and lit the fuse. It was too late to put it out. So he had to contextualize the blast as now being about the pause and some lack of communication that’s supposed to go on.

Matt Taibbi: How come you haven’t talked to the president?

Walter Kirn: Right.

Matt Taibbi: Dude, I’ve been sitting right here the entire time.

Walter Kirn: Well pick up your phone.

Matt Taibbi: Exactly.

Walter Kirn: Don’t you have a Neuralink?