Would this be a good time to bring up dying from COVID vs with COVID? Not accusing you specifically, but I heard over and over again that the mortality numbers were all unreliable. Why wouldn't that apply here as well?
That could very well apply here, too. My interest is message itself, the narrative that the CDC, with Fauchi and others, putting forth is not to be questioned, not even by peer colleagues in the medical and science professions. That's never happened before at any time in history. For example, how often did we hear that gunshot victims and accident victims didn't succumb from their injuries, instead they died from complications of the flu because they tested positive when they arrived at the hospital? That victim may indeed have had the flu at the time, but that wasn't the reason for the trip to the ER so they wouldn't necessarily test for it, nor would it be listed as the primary cause of death when the patient passed. That well-established policy went away in a virtual instant when Covid came along. Now, everyone gets tested for Covid when they arrive in the ER whether they're there for traffic accident, fall at home, nasty viral cold, and even if they're just supporting a family member. If they test positive, they automatically get classified as a CoVid patient. They may or may not be vaccinated. They may or may not be contagious. Doesn't matter, they're listed a another Covid Case and if they pass away due to injuries in the traffic accident, or fall at home, the death is listed as a Covid death because they were admitted as a Covid patient after a positive PCR test. (Did everyone else notice, too, that seasonal flu cases were nearly non-existent in the fall of 2020 in the northern hemisphere? There seems to be a correlation there, somewhere.) So to your question, are the Covid mortality numbers reliable or not? "The Narrative" says yes. Peer doctors and other decades-long experts and medical professionals who have different thoughts say, 'probably not that many'. We, as citizens living our lives outside of hospitals aren't suppose to have a researched, critically-thought out opinion. And if we do, we're not supposed to express it since we're not 'the experts'. Then consider this from someone who, more likely than not, knows what he's talking about:
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts. The experts who are leading you may be wrong. Science alone, of all the subjects, contains within itself the lesson of the danger of belief in the infallibility of the greatest teachers..." –Richard Feynman,
The irony is people on either side will deploy "The Narrative" as soon as it becomes convenient. That's not principled skepticism, it's the same tribalism as everything else. EDIT: for Feynman, although I agree with that quote:
Could you clarify, please, what other narrative(s) pertaining to this thread and who's saying them? I pay attention to what both tribes are saying, but I'm not sure I follow your point about both sides being heard in major media. I guess for me the big picture is about politics invading the fields of medicine and science in order to make policy decisions. It's a long read, but this lecture from Crichton better says what I mean:
My point regarding narratives wasn't directed at you or this thread specifically but the overall trend in the back and forth regarding COVID, whether it's official mortality numbers, statistics based on PCR results, etc.
Would this be a good time to bring up dying from COVID vs with COVID? Not accusing you specifically, but I heard over and over again that the mortality numbers were all unreliable. Why wouldn't that apply here as well?
That could very well apply here, too. My interest is message itself, the narrative that the CDC, with Fauchi and others, putting forth is not to be questioned, not even by peer colleagues in the medical and science professions. That's never happened before at any time in history. For example, how often did we hear that gunshot victims and accident victims didn't succumb from their injuries, instead they died from complications of the flu because they tested positive when they arrived at the hospital? That victim may indeed have had the flu at the time, but that wasn't the reason for the trip to the ER so they wouldn't necessarily test for it, nor would it be listed as the primary cause of death when the patient passed. That well-established policy went away in a virtual instant when Covid came along. Now, everyone gets tested for Covid when they arrive in the ER whether they're there for traffic accident, fall at home, nasty viral cold, and even if they're just supporting a family member. If they test positive, they automatically get classified as a CoVid patient. They may or may not be vaccinated. They may or may not be contagious. Doesn't matter, they're listed a another Covid Case and if they pass away due to injuries in the traffic accident, or fall at home, the death is listed as a Covid death because they were admitted as a Covid patient after a positive PCR test. (Did everyone else notice, too, that seasonal flu cases were nearly non-existent in the fall of 2020 in the northern hemisphere? There seems to be a correlation there, somewhere.) So to your question, are the Covid mortality numbers reliable or not? "The Narrative" says yes. Peer doctors and other decades-long experts and medical professionals who have different thoughts say, 'probably not that many'. We, as citizens living our lives outside of hospitals aren't suppose to have a researched, critically-thought out opinion. And if we do, we're not supposed to express it since we're not 'the experts'. Then consider this from someone who, more likely than not, knows what he's talking about:
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts. The experts who are leading you may be wrong. Science alone, of all the subjects, contains within itself the lesson of the danger of belief in the infallibility of the greatest teachers..." –Richard Feynman,
http://www.feynman.com/science/what-is-science/
The irony is people on either side will deploy "The Narrative" as soon as it becomes convenient. That's not principled skepticism, it's the same tribalism as everything else. EDIT: for Feynman, although I agree with that quote:
https://xkcd.com/793/
Could you clarify, please, what other narrative(s) pertaining to this thread and who's saying them? I pay attention to what both tribes are saying, but I'm not sure I follow your point about both sides being heard in major media. I guess for me the big picture is about politics invading the fields of medicine and science in order to make policy decisions. It's a long read, but this lecture from Crichton better says what I mean:
http://raconteurreport.blogspot.com/2017/06/aliens-cause-global-warming-by-michael.html?m=1
My point regarding narratives wasn't directed at you or this thread specifically but the overall trend in the back and forth regarding COVID, whether it's official mortality numbers, statistics based on PCR results, etc.
That's fair. Thanks