^^^This! I get so tired of Dems saying "How could anyone vote for Trump" from their cushy little pedestals. They have no clue what it's like for the working class in this country - nor do they care. BTW, I am a former Dem. The people who voted for Trump are not stupid. They knew he would be a shitty President. But they also knew that he would piss off the establishment. And they liked that he lacked a filter. The establishment is so filtered and polite that they will make promises with one hand while they are stabbing you in the back with the other. I don't think it's any mystery why people supported Trump. Dems pretend ignorance and innocence on this because if they truly wanted to know why, they'd have to look at and engage with working class people and deal with the fact that they've been shafting the working class via Federal policy for decades. And they've become far too snobby and addicted to money to ever get that real. It serves them to pretend they don't see the suffering of their fellow citizens. The way they try to dehumanize and discredit these people is disgusting and one of the main reasons I stopped voting Dem after Kerry.
It's a tragedy that information is transferable, but experience is not.
I've always thought the best thing that could happen to a person is to absolutely lose their shirt at some point in their adult life. We prefer success, but understand through failure.
There is nothing you can tell those who have never lost what that feels like. I don't think they pretend to not care so much as it's invisible to them.
Years ago I took a vacation to an upscale overseas resort built in a relatively poor country. I was sitting by the pool where we were enjoying tropical drinks, splashing, laughing and eating far too much. Just across the metal fence from the pool were the natives who were clearly living a very different reality. I'm sure all the people by the pool were looking at other people by the pool and feeling comparatively impoverished more than they were looking outside the fence and feeling successful.
It's not that the people don't care, it's that they are looking elsewhere and lack the life experience needed to process what they are not looking at and even if they did look, then what? In the case of the homeless here at home who can no longer be hidden the solution is primarily Potemkin village police sweeps. For those a few rungs further up the ladder, it was subprime loans in 2008 and gig jobs ever since.
One other thing. Lots of people here in flyover America live modestly and are quite happy. What is galling and vote motivating is watching the destruction of the country, breaking of laws, different rules being applied to different belief systems. The fundamental changes sought by this Democratic Party are telling those people they and their history don't count, and are in fact, evil. They can forget their future and the future for their children.
I'm sympathetic to your first point. I come from the Coast where they often brag about their wealth and federal tax revenue that they believe supports programs in fly over country such as farm subsidies.
True or not, fly over country has always provided the majority of those the military sends to die and it was not a bank in Wichita that blew up the entire economy in 2008 that required a national bail out. It was also not the elites from fly over country that ensured those who blew up the system were made financially whole while everyone not in their club was left with speeches about how the free market works as they lost everything.
On the point about those out breaking the laws and seeking fundamental change, They have far more in common with Trump supporters than anyone cares to admit.
I ignore the 2 dimensional caricatures. There are always extremists that end up front and center in the media, but I think if you met them in person you would have more sympathy than you realize. They have lived under a system where legal and political process has been weaponized to ensure tales they lose, heads the other side wins. It's an old game where those in power rig every peaceful process for change that they don't support, than feign outrage when those outside the system decide to no longer play by the rules. If you live in a place where those who hold power are lawless, it's not surprising many will grow to resent that system and want to burn it down.
Well, there it is in blazing colors. No stranger to working class here, but you said what I still don't get, which is the primary reason folks voted for him is he is a human middle finger to the Dems. I don't dispute any of other stuff you said. I'm in construction and see it all the time, but taking action with the specific intent to piss someone off is as constructive as shitting on my dinner plate. I'm still working off my premise that most folks don't have a single fucking idea about potential consequences when a middle finger gets pushed into one's face, nor would they like for a second what a collapsed system would mean for them, let alone the country. OTOH, I do understand that voting for HRC was a completely disgusting proposition.
Your logic is sound. But, this is not a logical problem. It's an emotional one. People get angry when they are devalued and when you give them no other out, they will use the finger if that's all they have. How desperate do you think these "left behind" people are? I grew up in a county in NY state that was both Appalachian and Rust Belt and I saw the hollowing out with my own two eyes.
Politicians gaslight these people who are screaming that Federal policy is destroying their communities with platitudes and bullshit - all to line their pockets and the pockets of the businesses that are playing slave-wage arbitrage.
Maybe globalization was inevitable. But they rub salt in the wound when they act like it doesn't matter - let's just get past it - while valorizing black cultural pain almost to the point of worship. All human pain matters, damn it - whether black or white or any other color (sadly, I'm an old-school leftie that still believes this as unfashionable as it has become) - and if government's purpose is only to work for certain demographics, then we have lost the thread on the left. If we abandon Universal human rights efforts, we are toast, and our cause is no longer just.
And I, for one, don't support the fascist-light ideologies emanating from my side of the political divide. Revenge, reverse discrimination, outright in-your-face dehumanization of white people, indoctrination of our youth with quasi-religious beliefs - not gonna fly with me. Even as I observe some of the regressive social attitudes of those in the working class. Doesn't mean we have a right to strip them of their right to be seen and heard, even if some of their cries are racist and/or vacuous.
I will never support blatant discrimination against whites as a tool to rectify wrongs of the past (Kendi). That said, I strongly support practical measures to rebuild black cultural wealth through education and uplift - training programs, educational initiatives, even group therapy in certain cases.
Regardless, I think my ideas are non-starters for the simple reason that the powerful don't want anyone at the bottom - black or white ro any other color - to build cultural currency for the very simple reason that it serves their interests to keep people down and controllable. And nothing achieves this objective like cultural division. I know this is cynical, but that's how I see things these days.
It's going to require individuals of unusual spirit and pluck to break through this net of negativity and remind us all that freedom includes the freedom to swim upstream and stand up against the mob. This type of individuality is quintessentially American and I hope we have enough of them to turn the tide of toxic ideology currently sweeping the country.
One, not sound logic (your first sentence). One has to understand how people end up in positions of power politically. We don't have a universality of choices. Again, look to Bush v Gore. The person who put China in the WTO was Bush, a real incompetent. But look at Biden, constantly telling us he'll get in trouble for what he might say. He's obviously not in charge but since he's a Democrat, it's OK? Radical leftists are in charge with a radical idiology. Garland is exposed as a hack. Lucky he was never made it to the Supreme Court. Everything is a hall of mirrors. We have ignored our education system that has FAILED to teach critical thinking. Obama had power for 8 years. What did he leave us? More corporate consolidation. Wrong about the working class too. They are NOT regressive. What does a degree in women's studies buy you or any other assortment of stupid majors at schools charging $60,000. a year? Plumbers and electricians are making more money than most in the professional class. Maybe some people have common sense and elites don't have it. This country has lost its way and we have seen with our own eyes outright corruption of our institutions. A realignment is underway because this country is not inherently racist...it's a diversion from the real agenda...which is something more ominous. Trump started calling the media FAKE NEWS which is exactly what it is. Propaganda. Follow the money...It will lead everywhere.
What annoys me is that much of the popular тАЬresistanceтАЭ to legitimate outrage against D/woke/ is just a constant spluttering of OAN buzzwords and talking points. IтАЩve fond myself getting annoyed with friends not over substance per se, but just repetitive whining and an unwillingness to discuss/investigate/read further. IтАЩve told-give your children or nieces and nephews some George Orwell or Thomas Jefferson to read, or make them listen Colion Noir on YouTube-you are an adult!
Bob Marley said тАЬEmancipate yourself from mental slavery/None but you can free your mindтАЭ. People on the right are slow to do that-and by refusing, they allow their legitimate grievances/fears/positions to be shunted aside. Joe Rogan is always talking about how it is good to do difficult things-he meant standup comedy or extreme physical training-but fails to apply this to political thinking-his guests nudge him, but he isnтАЩt quite there yet-and most Trump voters arenтАЩt either.
It's the opposite. The Democrats are the ones with the radical agenda that helps corporations. They want open borders to keep wages down and themselves in power. They want to get along with China so corporations can continue to get products made by cheap or slave labor. Who is regressive? Meanwhile these same liars rant about a minimum wage while they create inflation and allow Chinese corporations to be listed on US stock exchanges without the same accountability as US corporations. US corporations are funding the Chinese communist party. Look at Blinken in Alaska. It was embarrassing. Joe Rogan isn't lying all the time or a propaganda organ. It's Democrats who refuse to debate. It's Democrats/left who talk about systemic racism...because we all know that China isn't racist. China is colonizing African countries but no one on the left is worried about the NEW colonialism. Buzz words on OAN? How about lies constantly repeated verbatim on every corporate platform?
I wasnтАЩt speaking to the venality, corruption, and hypocrisy of the Ds, I was simply speaking to the intellectual foundations of the OAN crowd-which are lacking. I voted for Trump last year and supported much of what he accomplished during his term in office. That said, anyone trying to transform TrumpтАЩs needed presence as a disruptive force into a long term, coherent agenda is in for a rude awakening.
Ultimately, you can think that....until the disastrous new education mandate of 1619 comes to a school near your children...or the cost of living hits you....when you are personally impacted by bad policy...you change your tune. People forget the good times. Gore would have been a far better President than Bush. But people thought the good times would last and Gore was a zero as a politician. Everything must be looked at from the lens of powerful monied interests. Corporations and Big Tech supported Obama and Biden...that should tell you something.
Totally agree except it is far worse than that. What they did to Trump was a coup and we discovered there were no institutions to protect us from the security state. As soon as some Dems see what's happening in their own communities, we'll see what happens. How long will mothers tolerate their children wearing masks or not going to school? When the Biden policies reveal a lower standard of living, higher gas prices and inflation, maybe what's happening will hit home. Trump also inadvertently revealed the cowardice of our elected officials...and the total failure to enforce anti-trust laws. Trump was terrible as an administrator. He had poor judgment in people. But look at Biden. The Dems are running the show for him. Here, Trump was betrayed by his own party who were revealed NOT to be an opposition party....thus the uniparty media, the uniparty BigTech, the uniparty corporations. Our federal system becomes significant now. And mothers enraged at what the state is doing to their children.
^^^This! I get so tired of Dems saying "How could anyone vote for Trump" from their cushy little pedestals. They have no clue what it's like for the working class in this country - nor do they care. BTW, I am a former Dem. The people who voted for Trump are not stupid. They knew he would be a shitty President. But they also knew that he would piss off the establishment. And they liked that he lacked a filter. The establishment is so filtered and polite that they will make promises with one hand while they are stabbing you in the back with the other. I don't think it's any mystery why people supported Trump. Dems pretend ignorance and innocence on this because if they truly wanted to know why, they'd have to look at and engage with working class people and deal with the fact that they've been shafting the working class via Federal policy for decades. And they've become far too snobby and addicted to money to ever get that real. It serves them to pretend they don't see the suffering of their fellow citizens. The way they try to dehumanize and discredit these people is disgusting and one of the main reasons I stopped voting Dem after Kerry.
It's a tragedy that information is transferable, but experience is not.
I've always thought the best thing that could happen to a person is to absolutely lose their shirt at some point in their adult life. We prefer success, but understand through failure.
There is nothing you can tell those who have never lost what that feels like. I don't think they pretend to not care so much as it's invisible to them.
Years ago I took a vacation to an upscale overseas resort built in a relatively poor country. I was sitting by the pool where we were enjoying tropical drinks, splashing, laughing and eating far too much. Just across the metal fence from the pool were the natives who were clearly living a very different reality. I'm sure all the people by the pool were looking at other people by the pool and feeling comparatively impoverished more than they were looking outside the fence and feeling successful.
It's not that the people don't care, it's that they are looking elsewhere and lack the life experience needed to process what they are not looking at and even if they did look, then what? In the case of the homeless here at home who can no longer be hidden the solution is primarily Potemkin village police sweeps. For those a few rungs further up the ladder, it was subprime loans in 2008 and gig jobs ever since.
good analysis
One other thing. Lots of people here in flyover America live modestly and are quite happy. What is galling and vote motivating is watching the destruction of the country, breaking of laws, different rules being applied to different belief systems. The fundamental changes sought by this Democratic Party are telling those people they and their history don't count, and are in fact, evil. They can forget their future and the future for their children.
I'm sympathetic to your first point. I come from the Coast where they often brag about their wealth and federal tax revenue that they believe supports programs in fly over country such as farm subsidies.
True or not, fly over country has always provided the majority of those the military sends to die and it was not a bank in Wichita that blew up the entire economy in 2008 that required a national bail out. It was also not the elites from fly over country that ensured those who blew up the system were made financially whole while everyone not in their club was left with speeches about how the free market works as they lost everything.
On the point about those out breaking the laws and seeking fundamental change, They have far more in common with Trump supporters than anyone cares to admit.
I ignore the 2 dimensional caricatures. There are always extremists that end up front and center in the media, but I think if you met them in person you would have more sympathy than you realize. They have lived under a system where legal and political process has been weaponized to ensure tales they lose, heads the other side wins. It's an old game where those in power rig every peaceful process for change that they don't support, than feign outrage when those outside the system decide to no longer play by the rules. If you live in a place where those who hold power are lawless, it's not surprising many will grow to resent that system and want to burn it down.
totally correct
Well, there it is in blazing colors. No stranger to working class here, but you said what I still don't get, which is the primary reason folks voted for him is he is a human middle finger to the Dems. I don't dispute any of other stuff you said. I'm in construction and see it all the time, but taking action with the specific intent to piss someone off is as constructive as shitting on my dinner plate. I'm still working off my premise that most folks don't have a single fucking idea about potential consequences when a middle finger gets pushed into one's face, nor would they like for a second what a collapsed system would mean for them, let alone the country. OTOH, I do understand that voting for HRC was a completely disgusting proposition.
Your logic is sound. But, this is not a logical problem. It's an emotional one. People get angry when they are devalued and when you give them no other out, they will use the finger if that's all they have. How desperate do you think these "left behind" people are? I grew up in a county in NY state that was both Appalachian and Rust Belt and I saw the hollowing out with my own two eyes.
Politicians gaslight these people who are screaming that Federal policy is destroying their communities with platitudes and bullshit - all to line their pockets and the pockets of the businesses that are playing slave-wage arbitrage.
Maybe globalization was inevitable. But they rub salt in the wound when they act like it doesn't matter - let's just get past it - while valorizing black cultural pain almost to the point of worship. All human pain matters, damn it - whether black or white or any other color (sadly, I'm an old-school leftie that still believes this as unfashionable as it has become) - and if government's purpose is only to work for certain demographics, then we have lost the thread on the left. If we abandon Universal human rights efforts, we are toast, and our cause is no longer just.
And I, for one, don't support the fascist-light ideologies emanating from my side of the political divide. Revenge, reverse discrimination, outright in-your-face dehumanization of white people, indoctrination of our youth with quasi-religious beliefs - not gonna fly with me. Even as I observe some of the regressive social attitudes of those in the working class. Doesn't mean we have a right to strip them of their right to be seen and heard, even if some of their cries are racist and/or vacuous.
I will never support blatant discrimination against whites as a tool to rectify wrongs of the past (Kendi). That said, I strongly support practical measures to rebuild black cultural wealth through education and uplift - training programs, educational initiatives, even group therapy in certain cases.
Regardless, I think my ideas are non-starters for the simple reason that the powerful don't want anyone at the bottom - black or white ro any other color - to build cultural currency for the very simple reason that it serves their interests to keep people down and controllable. And nothing achieves this objective like cultural division. I know this is cynical, but that's how I see things these days.
It's going to require individuals of unusual spirit and pluck to break through this net of negativity and remind us all that freedom includes the freedom to swim upstream and stand up against the mob. This type of individuality is quintessentially American and I hope we have enough of them to turn the tide of toxic ideology currently sweeping the country.
One, not sound logic (your first sentence). One has to understand how people end up in positions of power politically. We don't have a universality of choices. Again, look to Bush v Gore. The person who put China in the WTO was Bush, a real incompetent. But look at Biden, constantly telling us he'll get in trouble for what he might say. He's obviously not in charge but since he's a Democrat, it's OK? Radical leftists are in charge with a radical idiology. Garland is exposed as a hack. Lucky he was never made it to the Supreme Court. Everything is a hall of mirrors. We have ignored our education system that has FAILED to teach critical thinking. Obama had power for 8 years. What did he leave us? More corporate consolidation. Wrong about the working class too. They are NOT regressive. What does a degree in women's studies buy you or any other assortment of stupid majors at schools charging $60,000. a year? Plumbers and electricians are making more money than most in the professional class. Maybe some people have common sense and elites don't have it. This country has lost its way and we have seen with our own eyes outright corruption of our institutions. A realignment is underway because this country is not inherently racist...it's a diversion from the real agenda...which is something more ominous. Trump started calling the media FAKE NEWS which is exactly what it is. Propaganda. Follow the money...It will lead everywhere.
Good stuff, Lightwing. You should comment more.
What annoys me is that much of the popular тАЬresistanceтАЭ to legitimate outrage against D/woke/ is just a constant spluttering of OAN buzzwords and talking points. IтАЩve fond myself getting annoyed with friends not over substance per se, but just repetitive whining and an unwillingness to discuss/investigate/read further. IтАЩve told-give your children or nieces and nephews some George Orwell or Thomas Jefferson to read, or make them listen Colion Noir on YouTube-you are an adult!
Bob Marley said тАЬEmancipate yourself from mental slavery/None but you can free your mindтАЭ. People on the right are slow to do that-and by refusing, they allow their legitimate grievances/fears/positions to be shunted aside. Joe Rogan is always talking about how it is good to do difficult things-he meant standup comedy or extreme physical training-but fails to apply this to political thinking-his guests nudge him, but he isnтАЩt quite there yet-and most Trump voters arenтАЩt either.
It's the opposite. The Democrats are the ones with the radical agenda that helps corporations. They want open borders to keep wages down and themselves in power. They want to get along with China so corporations can continue to get products made by cheap or slave labor. Who is regressive? Meanwhile these same liars rant about a minimum wage while they create inflation and allow Chinese corporations to be listed on US stock exchanges without the same accountability as US corporations. US corporations are funding the Chinese communist party. Look at Blinken in Alaska. It was embarrassing. Joe Rogan isn't lying all the time or a propaganda organ. It's Democrats who refuse to debate. It's Democrats/left who talk about systemic racism...because we all know that China isn't racist. China is colonizing African countries but no one on the left is worried about the NEW colonialism. Buzz words on OAN? How about lies constantly repeated verbatim on every corporate platform?
I wasnтАЩt speaking to the venality, corruption, and hypocrisy of the Ds, I was simply speaking to the intellectual foundations of the OAN crowd-which are lacking. I voted for Trump last year and supported much of what he accomplished during his term in office. That said, anyone trying to transform TrumpтАЩs needed presence as a disruptive force into a long term, coherent agenda is in for a rude awakening.
Ultimately, you can think that....until the disastrous new education mandate of 1619 comes to a school near your children...or the cost of living hits you....when you are personally impacted by bad policy...you change your tune. People forget the good times. Gore would have been a far better President than Bush. But people thought the good times would last and Gore was a zero as a politician. Everything must be looked at from the lens of powerful monied interests. Corporations and Big Tech supported Obama and Biden...that should tell you something.
Totally agree except it is far worse than that. What they did to Trump was a coup and we discovered there were no institutions to protect us from the security state. As soon as some Dems see what's happening in their own communities, we'll see what happens. How long will mothers tolerate their children wearing masks or not going to school? When the Biden policies reveal a lower standard of living, higher gas prices and inflation, maybe what's happening will hit home. Trump also inadvertently revealed the cowardice of our elected officials...and the total failure to enforce anti-trust laws. Trump was terrible as an administrator. He had poor judgment in people. But look at Biden. The Dems are running the show for him. Here, Trump was betrayed by his own party who were revealed NOT to be an opposition party....thus the uniparty media, the uniparty BigTech, the uniparty corporations. Our federal system becomes significant now. And mothers enraged at what the state is doing to their children.