With 70 million people voting for President Trump no single explanation will work, but for those who voted for Obama then Trump, for those who see the riots this Summer in the same category as those who occupied the capital in January you will find the best answer in "The Rebel" by Albert Camus.
Camus describes the motivation for a terrorist in this book, but he might as well have been describing the politically disaffected in 2016 as well.
It's not just spite and nihilism, although those are strong justifications. At core it's the unique rage born from humiliation.
In a society where we believe financial success is a virtue and hard work in the path to that, millions had their hard work wiped out in 2008 and we are still feeling the reverberations today.
I think this Harper Article from 2014 captures much of what I am talking about for those approaching retirement{
Areslent: I certainly hope you read the game theory research. One quickly realizes that a relatively street-smart loser almost always looks to challenge the game and thus the legitimacy of their loss rather than the opponent they just lost to.
BillPD - what will game theory look like when the average American decides he needs to arm his family like Sad-ass husain - and starts buing up the vast arsenal of surplus military goods that only need a Black Amex and a few hundred grand?
It won't be worth the paper you used to game theory a resume on dude.
Funny you say "paper it's written on" since game theory is ironically considered the exact opposite of theory on paper--actually pitting people against each other.
The best active shooter training utilizes game theory in almost all aspects.
BTW, mine was not a criticism of Arselent, but rather further evidence.
Thanks for the link, but I think it's important to keep in mind that social security wasn't intended to bankroll universal 20 year retirements in sunny climates. When social security was first implemented in 1935, life expectancy was 58 for men and 62 for women. And the retirement age was 65. I certainly do have some empathy for the working elderly, but with increased life expectancy I also believe that the retirement age should be adjusted.
Try getting a job as a 55 year old in the IT industry where you've spent 30 years of your career building. They don't want you. Your comment about adjusting the retirement age assumes a level playing field.
Got that right. Adjusting the retirement age is just another ploy for them to configure their algorithms to calculate when the geezers are dying off in sufficient quantity as to not represent a threat at the polls. Any of the construction trades are easily toasted at 65, as are ALL of the essential services I keep hearing about that everyone is so glad to express their gratitude to but shaft in the ribs backstage...that are in that boat. Fuck adjusting the retirement age; we need a new program, if there's any program at all.
I don't know if you read the Harper story I linked, but that is what I took from it. There was no talk of how existing programs have failed them. It instead paints a portrait of their challenges that I think forces us to imagine a different system for retirement.
I did read it. Digression happens. I read the comments in here and sometimes wonder how the fuck people extrapolate from MT to God knows what else. Maybe I did it here.
As a +55 in the IT industry (not an engineer) i certainly understand your concern on this.
Personally i have constantly upgraded my skill set and volunteered to take on new challenges and learn about the latest and greatest far in advance of it becoming widly adapted. That give me the advantage of early adopter over skilled worker, where the young do have advantages..
This approach ha landed me in consulting but i am already planning my next move for 5yrs from now when i hit 60 i will get myself into role that values my charm, good looks and gray hair
The scourge of the best woman actresses. I feel for you, Moxie.
I have found that a few good programmers with lacking social skills have soured the market for what was once viewed as wizardry.
And the reality matches neither: a lot of tech pros in their fifties are great folks to be around yet are just normal roll-up-the-sleeves problem solvers like everyone else.
Sorry about that, but I was looking back to what I learned 30 years ago, about IT, and realized it was more useless than the random bits of minor league stats I remember for players from the 50s and 60s.
There is nothing with less value than outdated tech knowledge.
Sorry, didn't realize you were so prickly and thin-skinned. Bad combination. I've no doubt you've kept up and been treated unfairly. My comment was on the complete worthlessness of dated tech learning. It doesn't even form much of a useful foundation for understanding anything that's being done today. I changed fields, eventually.
Interesting, I did not take any of that (about social security and retirement age) from this story. Certainly I didn't read any of these retirees complaining or ever mentioning social security. They seem determined to make the most of a tough situation.
Well, I think it's sad to see elderly people working such jobs. But what's the solution? More social security? More welfare? Maybe. There was a common theme in that article that many lost their nest egg in the '08 crash. If we actually put bankers in jail for financial crimes, and there were plenty in '08,maybe we can prevent this from happening to the next generation. I can't imagine boomers having the same pick yourself up by the boostraps mentality as the silent generation.
I agree, but I think it's instructive that they do not find their situation "sad." No where in this article do I get the sense they are asking for help.
One thing I appreciated most about this article is that the author did not appear to be "sending a message."
I don't know if you've watched the movie "Nomadland" based on a book by this same author, but it's the same. It shows the challenges and victories of those who have lost everything, but purposely avoids the "and that's why we need to do this!" kind of journalism I find so exhausting.
I think we have reached a point where it is hard to simply admit someone is suffering because we feel like that means we must agree to a predetermined prescription. I think empathy has value and people know a con when you constantly tell them stories while shaking a collection plate at them.
I also find the people I want to help most are the people who ask for help least. I real a lot of heartbreak stories and simply shrug. This story touched me because it asked nothing of me. I find myself asking what we could do to make their life better.
Well, according to the author the people he interviewed seem to not mind working. But the representation we received may or may not have been accurate. And even if it was accurate, there is not reason to believe that the handful of subjects he interview are representative of the working elderly as a whole. The stores certainly make me feel very sympathetic, and like you I wish we as a society could do something to help them. But whenever someone starts jerking my emotional strings, I also have a voice in the back of my head asking who they are and what's their goal. There are far more Rachael Maddows and Bill O'Reillies out there than Upton Sinclairs.
If one goes back and reads enough history to know the background that informed FDR to implement most of his policies, and absolutely his policies related to China, they one would know that the mope was NOT some brilliant leader but just another sad ass rich guy making decisions on things he scarcely understood, or didn't understand at all. FDR was no hero for the future; he pretty much guaranteed disaster on multiple fronts, with SS being one of the programs leading the charge.
Kurtocracy you have an interesting take that seems to not fit my understanding, but may enrich it.
This is not an area of expertise for me, he said mea culping...but my reading of history of the concept of a social savings account started with the Kaiser.
My European history prof in high school gave ample evidence that it was the way Germany unified from a bunch of small "nation states" into a unified nation for the first time in...well...ever.
So it has me somewhat intrigued that though completely different paths, we both eventually arrive at the SS.
I don't believe in coincidences, but sometimes evidence moves like quicksilver.
It definitely originated during the Weimar Republic. ItтАЩs a cute idea for social stability predicated on conditions that are extremely dynamic. ThereтАЩs a reason China hasnтАЩt donтАЩt something similar yet; they know it can only go bad.
China: I think if the Kaiser had the ability to score people based on the level of enthusiastic support of the Weimer Repub and use it to make every last aspect of their lives miserable, a national social insurance carrot would have seemed stupid.
Of course IMO, making every decision based on keeping a lid on descent doesn't seem like a long-game winning strategy, either.
With 70 million people voting for President Trump no single explanation will work, but for those who voted for Obama then Trump, for those who see the riots this Summer in the same category as those who occupied the capital in January you will find the best answer in "The Rebel" by Albert Camus.
Camus describes the motivation for a terrorist in this book, but he might as well have been describing the politically disaffected in 2016 as well.
It's not just spite and nihilism, although those are strong justifications. At core it's the unique rage born from humiliation.
In a society where we believe financial success is a virtue and hard work in the path to that, millions had their hard work wiped out in 2008 and we are still feeling the reverberations today.
I think this Harper Article from 2014 captures much of what I am talking about for those approaching retirement{
https://harpers.org/archive/2014/08/the-end-of-retirement/
"The Rebel" best captures the experience for those under 40.
Areslent: I certainly hope you read the game theory research. One quickly realizes that a relatively street-smart loser almost always looks to challenge the game and thus the legitimacy of their loss rather than the opponent they just lost to.
It would appear to be a human trait.
I think your reference to game theory is correct.
For me, it's the elements of this process that game theory does not cover I find endlessly interesting.
It's always the shit you don't measure, isn't it.
If that doesn't sum up my decades of being a member of SSCP*, I don't know what does...
*The Society for a Science of Clinical Psychology (SSCP)
BillPD - what will game theory look like when the average American decides he needs to arm his family like Sad-ass husain - and starts buing up the vast arsenal of surplus military goods that only need a Black Amex and a few hundred grand?
It won't be worth the paper you used to game theory a resume on dude.
In re-reading your post, I'm not sure I am grokking the gist of your post, rick.
Therefore my original reply is likely not addressing it. apologies.
I do usually try to stay relevant.
You might be surprised, rl.
Funny you say "paper it's written on" since game theory is ironically considered the exact opposite of theory on paper--actually pitting people against each other.
The best active shooter training utilizes game theory in almost all aspects.
BTW, mine was not a criticism of Arselent, but rather further evidence.
Thanks for the link, but I think it's important to keep in mind that social security wasn't intended to bankroll universal 20 year retirements in sunny climates. When social security was first implemented in 1935, life expectancy was 58 for men and 62 for women. And the retirement age was 65. I certainly do have some empathy for the working elderly, but with increased life expectancy I also believe that the retirement age should be adjusted.
Try getting a job as a 55 year old in the IT industry where you've spent 30 years of your career building. They don't want you. Your comment about adjusting the retirement age assumes a level playing field.
Got that right. Adjusting the retirement age is just another ploy for them to configure their algorithms to calculate when the geezers are dying off in sufficient quantity as to not represent a threat at the polls. Any of the construction trades are easily toasted at 65, as are ALL of the essential services I keep hearing about that everyone is so glad to express their gratitude to but shaft in the ribs backstage...that are in that boat. Fuck adjusting the retirement age; we need a new program, if there's any program at all.
I don't know if you read the Harper story I linked, but that is what I took from it. There was no talk of how existing programs have failed them. It instead paints a portrait of their challenges that I think forces us to imagine a different system for retirement.
I did read it. Digression happens. I read the comments in here and sometimes wonder how the fuck people extrapolate from MT to God knows what else. Maybe I did it here.
Well, in this case you extrapolated correctly, so I was going to congratulate you for getting it right and saving yourself some time to boot.
As a +55 in the IT industry (not an engineer) i certainly understand your concern on this.
Personally i have constantly upgraded my skill set and volunteered to take on new challenges and learn about the latest and greatest far in advance of it becoming widly adapted. That give me the advantage of early adopter over skilled worker, where the young do have advantages..
This approach ha landed me in consulting but i am already planning my next move for 5yrs from now when i hit 60 i will get myself into role that values my charm, good looks and gray hair
The scourge of the best woman actresses. I feel for you, Moxie.
I have found that a few good programmers with lacking social skills have soured the market for what was once viewed as wizardry.
And the reality matches neither: a lot of tech pros in their fifties are great folks to be around yet are just normal roll-up-the-sleeves problem solvers like everyone else.
Sorry about that, but I was looking back to what I learned 30 years ago, about IT, and realized it was more useless than the random bits of minor league stats I remember for players from the 50s and 60s.
There is nothing with less value than outdated tech knowledge.
What an outrageous comment betraying your abject ignorance and arrogance. As if I have learned nothing after year 1 of a 30 year career. GFY.
Sorry, didn't realize you were so prickly and thin-skinned. Bad combination. I've no doubt you've kept up and been treated unfairly. My comment was on the complete worthlessness of dated tech learning. It doesn't even form much of a useful foundation for understanding anything that's being done today. I changed fields, eventually.
Dude, take a chill pill. He was referencing himself, not knocking you.
Interesting, I did not take any of that (about social security and retirement age) from this story. Certainly I didn't read any of these retirees complaining or ever mentioning social security. They seem determined to make the most of a tough situation.
Well, I think it's sad to see elderly people working such jobs. But what's the solution? More social security? More welfare? Maybe. There was a common theme in that article that many lost their nest egg in the '08 crash. If we actually put bankers in jail for financial crimes, and there were plenty in '08,maybe we can prevent this from happening to the next generation. I can't imagine boomers having the same pick yourself up by the boostraps mentality as the silent generation.
I agree, but I think it's instructive that they do not find their situation "sad." No where in this article do I get the sense they are asking for help.
One thing I appreciated most about this article is that the author did not appear to be "sending a message."
I don't know if you've watched the movie "Nomadland" based on a book by this same author, but it's the same. It shows the challenges and victories of those who have lost everything, but purposely avoids the "and that's why we need to do this!" kind of journalism I find so exhausting.
I think we have reached a point where it is hard to simply admit someone is suffering because we feel like that means we must agree to a predetermined prescription. I think empathy has value and people know a con when you constantly tell them stories while shaking a collection plate at them.
I also find the people I want to help most are the people who ask for help least. I real a lot of heartbreak stories and simply shrug. This story touched me because it asked nothing of me. I find myself asking what we could do to make their life better.
Well, according to the author the people he interviewed seem to not mind working. But the representation we received may or may not have been accurate. And even if it was accurate, there is not reason to believe that the handful of subjects he interview are representative of the working elderly as a whole. The stores certainly make me feel very sympathetic, and like you I wish we as a society could do something to help them. But whenever someone starts jerking my emotional strings, I also have a voice in the back of my head asking who they are and what's their goal. There are far more Rachael Maddows and Bill O'Reillies out there than Upton Sinclairs.
Oy vey, sorry for all the typos. Hit post too early.
If one goes back and reads enough history to know the background that informed FDR to implement most of his policies, and absolutely his policies related to China, they one would know that the mope was NOT some brilliant leader but just another sad ass rich guy making decisions on things he scarcely understood, or didn't understand at all. FDR was no hero for the future; he pretty much guaranteed disaster on multiple fronts, with SS being one of the programs leading the charge.
But they were POPULAR stupid, disastrous decisions, man.
Kurtocracy you have an interesting take that seems to not fit my understanding, but may enrich it.
This is not an area of expertise for me, he said mea culping...but my reading of history of the concept of a social savings account started with the Kaiser.
My European history prof in high school gave ample evidence that it was the way Germany unified from a bunch of small "nation states" into a unified nation for the first time in...well...ever.
So it has me somewhat intrigued that though completely different paths, we both eventually arrive at the SS.
I don't believe in coincidences, but sometimes evidence moves like quicksilver.
Thanks for your post!
It definitely originated during the Weimar Republic. ItтАЩs a cute idea for social stability predicated on conditions that are extremely dynamic. ThereтАЩs a reason China hasnтАЩt donтАЩt something similar yet; they know it can only go bad.
China: I think if the Kaiser had the ability to score people based on the level of enthusiastic support of the Weimer Repub and use it to make every last aspect of their lives miserable, a national social insurance carrot would have seemed stupid.
Of course IMO, making every decision based on keeping a lid on descent doesn't seem like a long-game winning strategy, either.
тАЬIt's not just spite and nihilism, although those are strong justifications. At core it's the unique rage born from humiliation.тАЬ