That part, yeah, for sure. Veterans are in close competition for most ignored segment of society, and that can't go anyplace good absent well developed and executed policy. Which I'm resigned to not ever happening. I'm just trying to get clear here, as in, what the fuck is it that makes anyone imagine Trump is the answer? It's entered into utter and complete cartoon buffoonery, and the guy that's tanked a half dozen CASINOS is the answer...?!?
I think you may fail to comprehend the utter desperation and miserable circumstances faced by many Trump voters. I don't think -- for the most part -- that they think he's "The Answer," it's that they don't think there is an answer. The system in its present form has failed them and they see no hope of reform, so they voted for a human middle finger. It's nihilism in action. Never underestimate the political power of spite.
...this is mostly conjecture on my part; I didn't interview every Trump voter in the country. As always, I am probably totally full of shit.
You work in construction; you like to build things, restore things, preserve things. You might have trouble understanding that some men just want to watch the world burn.
^^^This! I get so tired of Dems saying "How could anyone vote for Trump" from their cushy little pedestals. They have no clue what it's like for the working class in this country - nor do they care. BTW, I am a former Dem. The people who voted for Trump are not stupid. They knew he would be a shitty President. But they also knew that he would piss off the establishment. And they liked that he lacked a filter. The establishment is so filtered and polite that they will make promises with one hand while they are stabbing you in the back with the other. I don't think it's any mystery why people supported Trump. Dems pretend ignorance and innocence on this because if they truly wanted to know why, they'd have to look at and engage with working class people and deal with the fact that they've been shafting the working class via Federal policy for decades. And they've become far too snobby and addicted to money to ever get that real. It serves them to pretend they don't see the suffering of their fellow citizens. The way they try to dehumanize and discredit these people is disgusting and one of the main reasons I stopped voting Dem after Kerry.
It's a tragedy that information is transferable, but experience is not.
I've always thought the best thing that could happen to a person is to absolutely lose their shirt at some point in their adult life. We prefer success, but understand through failure.
There is nothing you can tell those who have never lost what that feels like. I don't think they pretend to not care so much as it's invisible to them.
Years ago I took a vacation to an upscale overseas resort built in a relatively poor country. I was sitting by the pool where we were enjoying tropical drinks, splashing, laughing and eating far too much. Just across the metal fence from the pool were the natives who were clearly living a very different reality. I'm sure all the people by the pool were looking at other people by the pool and feeling comparatively impoverished more than they were looking outside the fence and feeling successful.
It's not that the people don't care, it's that they are looking elsewhere and lack the life experience needed to process what they are not looking at and even if they did look, then what? In the case of the homeless here at home who can no longer be hidden the solution is primarily Potemkin village police sweeps. For those a few rungs further up the ladder, it was subprime loans in 2008 and gig jobs ever since.
One other thing. Lots of people here in flyover America live modestly and are quite happy. What is galling and vote motivating is watching the destruction of the country, breaking of laws, different rules being applied to different belief systems. The fundamental changes sought by this Democratic Party are telling those people they and their history don't count, and are in fact, evil. They can forget their future and the future for their children.
I'm sympathetic to your first point. I come from the Coast where they often brag about their wealth and federal tax revenue that they believe supports programs in fly over country such as farm subsidies.
True or not, fly over country has always provided the majority of those the military sends to die and it was not a bank in Wichita that blew up the entire economy in 2008 that required a national bail out. It was also not the elites from fly over country that ensured those who blew up the system were made financially whole while everyone not in their club was left with speeches about how the free market works as they lost everything.
On the point about those out breaking the laws and seeking fundamental change, They have far more in common with Trump supporters than anyone cares to admit.
I ignore the 2 dimensional caricatures. There are always extremists that end up front and center in the media, but I think if you met them in person you would have more sympathy than you realize. They have lived under a system where legal and political process has been weaponized to ensure tales they lose, heads the other side wins. It's an old game where those in power rig every peaceful process for change that they don't support, than feign outrage when those outside the system decide to no longer play by the rules. If you live in a place where those who hold power are lawless, it's not surprising many will grow to resent that system and want to burn it down.
Well, there it is in blazing colors. No stranger to working class here, but you said what I still don't get, which is the primary reason folks voted for him is he is a human middle finger to the Dems. I don't dispute any of other stuff you said. I'm in construction and see it all the time, but taking action with the specific intent to piss someone off is as constructive as shitting on my dinner plate. I'm still working off my premise that most folks don't have a single fucking idea about potential consequences when a middle finger gets pushed into one's face, nor would they like for a second what a collapsed system would mean for them, let alone the country. OTOH, I do understand that voting for HRC was a completely disgusting proposition.
Your logic is sound. But, this is not a logical problem. It's an emotional one. People get angry when they are devalued and when you give them no other out, they will use the finger if that's all they have. How desperate do you think these "left behind" people are? I grew up in a county in NY state that was both Appalachian and Rust Belt and I saw the hollowing out with my own two eyes.
Politicians gaslight these people who are screaming that Federal policy is destroying their communities with platitudes and bullshit - all to line their pockets and the pockets of the businesses that are playing slave-wage arbitrage.
Maybe globalization was inevitable. But they rub salt in the wound when they act like it doesn't matter - let's just get past it - while valorizing black cultural pain almost to the point of worship. All human pain matters, damn it - whether black or white or any other color (sadly, I'm an old-school leftie that still believes this as unfashionable as it has become) - and if government's purpose is only to work for certain demographics, then we have lost the thread on the left. If we abandon Universal human rights efforts, we are toast, and our cause is no longer just.
And I, for one, don't support the fascist-light ideologies emanating from my side of the political divide. Revenge, reverse discrimination, outright in-your-face dehumanization of white people, indoctrination of our youth with quasi-religious beliefs - not gonna fly with me. Even as I observe some of the regressive social attitudes of those in the working class. Doesn't mean we have a right to strip them of their right to be seen and heard, even if some of their cries are racist and/or vacuous.
I will never support blatant discrimination against whites as a tool to rectify wrongs of the past (Kendi). That said, I strongly support practical measures to rebuild black cultural wealth through education and uplift - training programs, educational initiatives, even group therapy in certain cases.
Regardless, I think my ideas are non-starters for the simple reason that the powerful don't want anyone at the bottom - black or white ro any other color - to build cultural currency for the very simple reason that it serves their interests to keep people down and controllable. And nothing achieves this objective like cultural division. I know this is cynical, but that's how I see things these days.
It's going to require individuals of unusual spirit and pluck to break through this net of negativity and remind us all that freedom includes the freedom to swim upstream and stand up against the mob. This type of individuality is quintessentially American and I hope we have enough of them to turn the tide of toxic ideology currently sweeping the country.
One, not sound logic (your first sentence). One has to understand how people end up in positions of power politically. We don't have a universality of choices. Again, look to Bush v Gore. The person who put China in the WTO was Bush, a real incompetent. But look at Biden, constantly telling us he'll get in trouble for what he might say. He's obviously not in charge but since he's a Democrat, it's OK? Radical leftists are in charge with a radical idiology. Garland is exposed as a hack. Lucky he was never made it to the Supreme Court. Everything is a hall of mirrors. We have ignored our education system that has FAILED to teach critical thinking. Obama had power for 8 years. What did he leave us? More corporate consolidation. Wrong about the working class too. They are NOT regressive. What does a degree in women's studies buy you or any other assortment of stupid majors at schools charging $60,000. a year? Plumbers and electricians are making more money than most in the professional class. Maybe some people have common sense and elites don't have it. This country has lost its way and we have seen with our own eyes outright corruption of our institutions. A realignment is underway because this country is not inherently racist...it's a diversion from the real agenda...which is something more ominous. Trump started calling the media FAKE NEWS which is exactly what it is. Propaganda. Follow the money...It will lead everywhere.
What annoys me is that much of the popular тАЬresistanceтАЭ to legitimate outrage against D/woke/ is just a constant spluttering of OAN buzzwords and talking points. IтАЩve fond myself getting annoyed with friends not over substance per se, but just repetitive whining and an unwillingness to discuss/investigate/read further. IтАЩve told-give your children or nieces and nephews some George Orwell or Thomas Jefferson to read, or make them listen Colion Noir on YouTube-you are an adult!
Bob Marley said тАЬEmancipate yourself from mental slavery/None but you can free your mindтАЭ. People on the right are slow to do that-and by refusing, they allow their legitimate grievances/fears/positions to be shunted aside. Joe Rogan is always talking about how it is good to do difficult things-he meant standup comedy or extreme physical training-but fails to apply this to political thinking-his guests nudge him, but he isnтАЩt quite there yet-and most Trump voters arenтАЩt either.
It's the opposite. The Democrats are the ones with the radical agenda that helps corporations. They want open borders to keep wages down and themselves in power. They want to get along with China so corporations can continue to get products made by cheap or slave labor. Who is regressive? Meanwhile these same liars rant about a minimum wage while they create inflation and allow Chinese corporations to be listed on US stock exchanges without the same accountability as US corporations. US corporations are funding the Chinese communist party. Look at Blinken in Alaska. It was embarrassing. Joe Rogan isn't lying all the time or a propaganda organ. It's Democrats who refuse to debate. It's Democrats/left who talk about systemic racism...because we all know that China isn't racist. China is colonizing African countries but no one on the left is worried about the NEW colonialism. Buzz words on OAN? How about lies constantly repeated verbatim on every corporate platform?
Ultimately, you can think that....until the disastrous new education mandate of 1619 comes to a school near your children...or the cost of living hits you....when you are personally impacted by bad policy...you change your tune. People forget the good times. Gore would have been a far better President than Bush. But people thought the good times would last and Gore was a zero as a politician. Everything must be looked at from the lens of powerful monied interests. Corporations and Big Tech supported Obama and Biden...that should tell you something.
Totally agree except it is far worse than that. What they did to Trump was a coup and we discovered there were no institutions to protect us from the security state. As soon as some Dems see what's happening in their own communities, we'll see what happens. How long will mothers tolerate their children wearing masks or not going to school? When the Biden policies reveal a lower standard of living, higher gas prices and inflation, maybe what's happening will hit home. Trump also inadvertently revealed the cowardice of our elected officials...and the total failure to enforce anti-trust laws. Trump was terrible as an administrator. He had poor judgment in people. But look at Biden. The Dems are running the show for him. Here, Trump was betrayed by his own party who were revealed NOT to be an opposition party....thus the uniparty media, the uniparty BigTech, the uniparty corporations. Our federal system becomes significant now. And mothers enraged at what the state is doing to their children.
With 70 million people voting for President Trump no single explanation will work, but for those who voted for Obama then Trump, for those who see the riots this Summer in the same category as those who occupied the capital in January you will find the best answer in "The Rebel" by Albert Camus.
Camus describes the motivation for a terrorist in this book, but he might as well have been describing the politically disaffected in 2016 as well.
It's not just spite and nihilism, although those are strong justifications. At core it's the unique rage born from humiliation.
In a society where we believe financial success is a virtue and hard work in the path to that, millions had their hard work wiped out in 2008 and we are still feeling the reverberations today.
I think this Harper Article from 2014 captures much of what I am talking about for those approaching retirement{
Areslent: I certainly hope you read the game theory research. One quickly realizes that a relatively street-smart loser almost always looks to challenge the game and thus the legitimacy of their loss rather than the opponent they just lost to.
BillPD - what will game theory look like when the average American decides he needs to arm his family like Sad-ass husain - and starts buing up the vast arsenal of surplus military goods that only need a Black Amex and a few hundred grand?
It won't be worth the paper you used to game theory a resume on dude.
Funny you say "paper it's written on" since game theory is ironically considered the exact opposite of theory on paper--actually pitting people against each other.
The best active shooter training utilizes game theory in almost all aspects.
BTW, mine was not a criticism of Arselent, but rather further evidence.
Thanks for the link, but I think it's important to keep in mind that social security wasn't intended to bankroll universal 20 year retirements in sunny climates. When social security was first implemented in 1935, life expectancy was 58 for men and 62 for women. And the retirement age was 65. I certainly do have some empathy for the working elderly, but with increased life expectancy I also believe that the retirement age should be adjusted.
Try getting a job as a 55 year old in the IT industry where you've spent 30 years of your career building. They don't want you. Your comment about adjusting the retirement age assumes a level playing field.
Got that right. Adjusting the retirement age is just another ploy for them to configure their algorithms to calculate when the geezers are dying off in sufficient quantity as to not represent a threat at the polls. Any of the construction trades are easily toasted at 65, as are ALL of the essential services I keep hearing about that everyone is so glad to express their gratitude to but shaft in the ribs backstage...that are in that boat. Fuck adjusting the retirement age; we need a new program, if there's any program at all.
As a +55 in the IT industry (not an engineer) i certainly understand your concern on this.
Personally i have constantly upgraded my skill set and volunteered to take on new challenges and learn about the latest and greatest far in advance of it becoming widly adapted. That give me the advantage of early adopter over skilled worker, where the young do have advantages..
This approach ha landed me in consulting but i am already planning my next move for 5yrs from now when i hit 60 i will get myself into role that values my charm, good looks and gray hair
The scourge of the best woman actresses. I feel for you, Moxie.
I have found that a few good programmers with lacking social skills have soured the market for what was once viewed as wizardry.
And the reality matches neither: a lot of tech pros in their fifties are great folks to be around yet are just normal roll-up-the-sleeves problem solvers like everyone else.
Sorry about that, but I was looking back to what I learned 30 years ago, about IT, and realized it was more useless than the random bits of minor league stats I remember for players from the 50s and 60s.
There is nothing with less value than outdated tech knowledge.
Interesting, I did not take any of that (about social security and retirement age) from this story. Certainly I didn't read any of these retirees complaining or ever mentioning social security. They seem determined to make the most of a tough situation.
Well, I think it's sad to see elderly people working such jobs. But what's the solution? More social security? More welfare? Maybe. There was a common theme in that article that many lost their nest egg in the '08 crash. If we actually put bankers in jail for financial crimes, and there were plenty in '08,maybe we can prevent this from happening to the next generation. I can't imagine boomers having the same pick yourself up by the boostraps mentality as the silent generation.
If one goes back and reads enough history to know the background that informed FDR to implement most of his policies, and absolutely his policies related to China, they one would know that the mope was NOT some brilliant leader but just another sad ass rich guy making decisions on things he scarcely understood, or didn't understand at all. FDR was no hero for the future; he pretty much guaranteed disaster on multiple fronts, with SS being one of the programs leading the charge.
Kurtocracy you have an interesting take that seems to not fit my understanding, but may enrich it.
This is not an area of expertise for me, he said mea culping...but my reading of history of the concept of a social savings account started with the Kaiser.
My European history prof in high school gave ample evidence that it was the way Germany unified from a bunch of small "nation states" into a unified nation for the first time in...well...ever.
So it has me somewhat intrigued that though completely different paths, we both eventually arrive at the SS.
I don't believe in coincidences, but sometimes evidence moves like quicksilver.
That was always my understanding, and he was the "Not-Hillary Candidate", which is a pretty good recommendation.
Then he gets in office, forgets which finger he's supposed to be, and starts tweeting like a 12-year-old with his own phone for the first time (yea, I know...). All he had to do was fake being Presidential for few hours a week!! Was that too much to ask? Well, apparently it was. Damn.
It wasn't nihilism. It was the emergence of common sense. It was ripping the veil off phony "conservative" Republicans and "moderate" Republicans--as well as "moderate" Biden. It has mobilized people and mobilized the security state as well. Look at free speech. Look at censorship. Anyone who understands the constitution understands the importance of free speech and open platforms. The media's reputation was destroyed because of Trump--that alone is an accomplishment. New voices emerged. This is nihilism. Trump accomplished an important mission. He made people see how the corporate class was in league with the uniparty outsourcing jobs and manufacturing to China. He opened many people's eyes to institutionalized corruption at all levels.
A seminal moment that's been building for 30+ years - the silent anguish of millions of Americans who blamed themselves for the declining standard of living, having NOTHING to pass on an instead becoming a burden to their own kids (much like generatons prior to FDR's successful Social Security - for the first 50+ years)---people who now KNOW they are not to blame but have been screwed by the likes of Clinton/Obama/Biden and Bush/Cheney/the Mittster/McGoofy---and are back to the healthy kind of populist movement that can effect change - every bit as alive and effective as the Poor People's Campaign with MLK when race wasn''t about crony capitalism nor revenge - but - oppertunity.
Steve Bannon calls it a 'fourth turning' and comparable to Cotton Mather's GREAT AWAKENING - a piviotal movement to propel our eventual declared independence (a minority of Americans who did this and likewise fought the British to win it)
The more we let these Democrats under Biden do what they believe they can force through the more people will forget about Trump and his showmanship or social media manipulations - and instead compare and contrast his winning policies against the garbage coming out of these self-dealing elites in DC....
No you are not full of ....MAGA is a force that's been building like the worlds largest ball of string - a lot of threads. GWOT was really phase three - which is why I believe we are nearing the 'Missouri compromise' analogy on Civil War One informing historically the potential for another big Bang....
After all - go back to Bull Run...and all the idiots who put out a table and banquet believing it would be a spring campaign and jolly good entertainment - until they had to run for their lives when the realities of war crashed their party....
I believe yesterday's faceless Facebook decision is a shock that is silently being processed by the population. It could be close to "the final straw."
Trump is horrid, but he got even more votes the 2nd time around after years of media venom. Does that not suggest there is a serious disengagement of the electorate going on for some reason?
I do not agree that it is nihilism. I reserve that for the forces that are packing the Supreme Court, pulling down the statues, and laying in front of the fire truck to prevent it from getting to the car dealership that I just watched them torch LIVE on tv.
"Does that not suggest there is a serious disengagement of the electorate going on for some reason?"
I think you're getting to the meat of the point I was trying to make here.
Much of the public remains completely unmotivated to vote, and among motivated voters DJT got a narrow minority of the vote (according to official reports).
"Nothing will fundamentally change" doesn't seem to be an appealing advertising slogan for a lot of people. I'm kind of reminded of the ad campaign Domino's Pizza ran several years ago in which they openly admitted their pizza was shitty and promised to improve it.
The current administration does not even rise to the level of Domino's. Remember HRC's intendedly witty riposte to "MAGA": "America is already great"? Didn't play well with the many people in this country leading miserable, painful lives.
That was such an odious campaign. From the basket of deplorables, to the "we're going to put a lot of coal miners out of work". The Hillbots were but, but - listen to the whole statement she made, it's quoted out of context. I say bullshit, it was class dogwhistles with cya qualifiers tacked onto the end.
Bernie Sanders said it before, and Joe Biden said the same thing. Listen to Thomas Frank -
"Reminiscing about the 2016 Democratic effort, Biden recalled how Democratic strategists told him they intended to тАЬgive up on white working-class folksтАЭ. тАЬWell, look whatтАЩs happened,тАЭ he continued."
"He recalled in the interview being told by a Hillary Clinton operative in 2016 that he тАЬhad to make a distinction between progressive values and working-class valuesтАЭ."
I blame Doris Matsui. She was the one who passed the letter around congress that all of the women signed urging Hillary to run. Which neutered any chance for Warren, for one.
And Obama too, who totally backed the wrong horse. I think Joe would have probably squeaked it.
But if either Clinton or Biden had won, it would have been business as usual and just delayed the inevitable election of Trump or someone similar.
Bernie might have gotten knocked out by the blob, but he got to make his mark.
Hillary became the evil she thought she grew up fighting when she hired Dick Morris to run Billy's campaign back in the 90's.
By 2016 she just looked like...well, the Emperor in Star Wars..."you fool, you thought you were strong enough to fight me? You are weak, Bernie Skywalker."
She showed her colors as "Second Vice President" in 93-94 when she tried to sell her healthcare plan by contemptuously spitting out how she was going to "get rid of all those pencil-pushers in the insurance industry" (spitting out those "p"s as if she were saying "profit"), as if A) those employed pencil pushers weren't taxpaying Americans (and voters) and B) there wasn't the insane implication in there that if only the GOVERNMENT was running our health care...there wouldn't be paper pushers? They'd all be doctors and nurses?? Has she ever SEEN a government agency,, bureau, department?? (of course she had, and they were all full of nice unionized Democratic voters)
Absolutely insane. And contemptuous of the cognitive abilities of her fellow Americans. What a pig.
Trollificus: too tiny of a point to be a criticism of your post, but Hillary-care did not mean the government would be "in your health care" as much as they were assuming the role of insurer.
There are few more fucked up private industry sectors as health care insurance. Possibly the re-insurance market.
And to get completely off-base, why the hell is medical care of my teeth a whole separate insurance?
I'm just not sure even the government would be worse...
Free market means I have eight trash trucks that come through my hood on trash day. How many more until it just makes sense to make it a utility?
I get that you're proposing that health insurance just *might* be the one area of endeavor that could be improved by being in government hands. My wife has had a career in medical insurance and I'm not sure she would disagree. We spend hours puzzling over management decisions that make things worse, procedures that are perfectly counterintuitive for a company that actually valued efficiency and other foible. The best company she worked for was Principal Financial's insurance sector and they bailed about 10 years ago, so you may be right.
My comment reflects what I remember from nightly newscasts. We live in the St. Louis media market and have had the opportunity to watch days and nights of protesting, live. The night the St. Louis grand jury returned a no true bill against the officer investigated for the shooting of Michael Brown (Nov. 24, 2014), the latter's stepfather admonished protesters to "burn the bitch down." Among other destruction, local news helicopter coverage showed a person lighting cars on fire at a dealer; no one arrested him and it was deemed too dangerous for the fire department to respond to it and many other fires due to reports of gunfire. A CNN report from that time says airspace was actually closed by the FAA over Ferguson for awhile due to guns fired in the air. (I hadn't remembered that). On May 31, 2020 , George Floyd protesters looted then burned down a 7-11 in downtown St.Louis. A Post-Dispatch reporter tweeted that the fire chief "said protesters blocked fire trucks from responding . . . a few laid down in the street, rolled trash cans in the way . . ."
Please. Corporate bankruptcies. It's legal and done by so many in the corporate class. Does it even compare to Goldman Sachs, the ratings companies etc when they tanked our economy in 2007? Obama let them off scott free. When you focus on the small stuff (and the bankruptcies were legal and done all the time) you miss the big picture. The comment about Trump's positives are accurate.; There was no Republican onboard with the substantive changes and alliances that Trump impacted. His inability to be a Ron DeSantis is apparent. But there was only Trump running against Hillary. No other Republican running would have won. No other Republican would have inadvertently created a new movement in the Republican party. No other Republican would have inadvertently exposed all the Republican think tanks. In fact many of those groups were working on taking Trump down. So when the Koch brothers are against you...and the Club for Growth--how bad can you really be when there is no one else in power calling out our stupid and phony "free trade" policies?
That part, yeah, for sure. Veterans are in close competition for most ignored segment of society, and that can't go anyplace good absent well developed and executed policy. Which I'm resigned to not ever happening. I'm just trying to get clear here, as in, what the fuck is it that makes anyone imagine Trump is the answer? It's entered into utter and complete cartoon buffoonery, and the guy that's tanked a half dozen CASINOS is the answer...?!?
Kurt:
I think you may fail to comprehend the utter desperation and miserable circumstances faced by many Trump voters. I don't think -- for the most part -- that they think he's "The Answer," it's that they don't think there is an answer. The system in its present form has failed them and they see no hope of reform, so they voted for a human middle finger. It's nihilism in action. Never underestimate the political power of spite.
...this is mostly conjecture on my part; I didn't interview every Trump voter in the country. As always, I am probably totally full of shit.
You work in construction; you like to build things, restore things, preserve things. You might have trouble understanding that some men just want to watch the world burn.
Human middle finger. He is a human middle finger indeed.
^^^This! I get so tired of Dems saying "How could anyone vote for Trump" from their cushy little pedestals. They have no clue what it's like for the working class in this country - nor do they care. BTW, I am a former Dem. The people who voted for Trump are not stupid. They knew he would be a shitty President. But they also knew that he would piss off the establishment. And they liked that he lacked a filter. The establishment is so filtered and polite that they will make promises with one hand while they are stabbing you in the back with the other. I don't think it's any mystery why people supported Trump. Dems pretend ignorance and innocence on this because if they truly wanted to know why, they'd have to look at and engage with working class people and deal with the fact that they've been shafting the working class via Federal policy for decades. And they've become far too snobby and addicted to money to ever get that real. It serves them to pretend they don't see the suffering of their fellow citizens. The way they try to dehumanize and discredit these people is disgusting and one of the main reasons I stopped voting Dem after Kerry.
It's a tragedy that information is transferable, but experience is not.
I've always thought the best thing that could happen to a person is to absolutely lose their shirt at some point in their adult life. We prefer success, but understand through failure.
There is nothing you can tell those who have never lost what that feels like. I don't think they pretend to not care so much as it's invisible to them.
Years ago I took a vacation to an upscale overseas resort built in a relatively poor country. I was sitting by the pool where we were enjoying tropical drinks, splashing, laughing and eating far too much. Just across the metal fence from the pool were the natives who were clearly living a very different reality. I'm sure all the people by the pool were looking at other people by the pool and feeling comparatively impoverished more than they were looking outside the fence and feeling successful.
It's not that the people don't care, it's that they are looking elsewhere and lack the life experience needed to process what they are not looking at and even if they did look, then what? In the case of the homeless here at home who can no longer be hidden the solution is primarily Potemkin village police sweeps. For those a few rungs further up the ladder, it was subprime loans in 2008 and gig jobs ever since.
good analysis
One other thing. Lots of people here in flyover America live modestly and are quite happy. What is galling and vote motivating is watching the destruction of the country, breaking of laws, different rules being applied to different belief systems. The fundamental changes sought by this Democratic Party are telling those people they and their history don't count, and are in fact, evil. They can forget their future and the future for their children.
I'm sympathetic to your first point. I come from the Coast where they often brag about their wealth and federal tax revenue that they believe supports programs in fly over country such as farm subsidies.
True or not, fly over country has always provided the majority of those the military sends to die and it was not a bank in Wichita that blew up the entire economy in 2008 that required a national bail out. It was also not the elites from fly over country that ensured those who blew up the system were made financially whole while everyone not in their club was left with speeches about how the free market works as they lost everything.
On the point about those out breaking the laws and seeking fundamental change, They have far more in common with Trump supporters than anyone cares to admit.
I ignore the 2 dimensional caricatures. There are always extremists that end up front and center in the media, but I think if you met them in person you would have more sympathy than you realize. They have lived under a system where legal and political process has been weaponized to ensure tales they lose, heads the other side wins. It's an old game where those in power rig every peaceful process for change that they don't support, than feign outrage when those outside the system decide to no longer play by the rules. If you live in a place where those who hold power are lawless, it's not surprising many will grow to resent that system and want to burn it down.
totally correct
Well, there it is in blazing colors. No stranger to working class here, but you said what I still don't get, which is the primary reason folks voted for him is he is a human middle finger to the Dems. I don't dispute any of other stuff you said. I'm in construction and see it all the time, but taking action with the specific intent to piss someone off is as constructive as shitting on my dinner plate. I'm still working off my premise that most folks don't have a single fucking idea about potential consequences when a middle finger gets pushed into one's face, nor would they like for a second what a collapsed system would mean for them, let alone the country. OTOH, I do understand that voting for HRC was a completely disgusting proposition.
Your logic is sound. But, this is not a logical problem. It's an emotional one. People get angry when they are devalued and when you give them no other out, they will use the finger if that's all they have. How desperate do you think these "left behind" people are? I grew up in a county in NY state that was both Appalachian and Rust Belt and I saw the hollowing out with my own two eyes.
Politicians gaslight these people who are screaming that Federal policy is destroying their communities with platitudes and bullshit - all to line their pockets and the pockets of the businesses that are playing slave-wage arbitrage.
Maybe globalization was inevitable. But they rub salt in the wound when they act like it doesn't matter - let's just get past it - while valorizing black cultural pain almost to the point of worship. All human pain matters, damn it - whether black or white or any other color (sadly, I'm an old-school leftie that still believes this as unfashionable as it has become) - and if government's purpose is only to work for certain demographics, then we have lost the thread on the left. If we abandon Universal human rights efforts, we are toast, and our cause is no longer just.
And I, for one, don't support the fascist-light ideologies emanating from my side of the political divide. Revenge, reverse discrimination, outright in-your-face dehumanization of white people, indoctrination of our youth with quasi-religious beliefs - not gonna fly with me. Even as I observe some of the regressive social attitudes of those in the working class. Doesn't mean we have a right to strip them of their right to be seen and heard, even if some of their cries are racist and/or vacuous.
I will never support blatant discrimination against whites as a tool to rectify wrongs of the past (Kendi). That said, I strongly support practical measures to rebuild black cultural wealth through education and uplift - training programs, educational initiatives, even group therapy in certain cases.
Regardless, I think my ideas are non-starters for the simple reason that the powerful don't want anyone at the bottom - black or white ro any other color - to build cultural currency for the very simple reason that it serves their interests to keep people down and controllable. And nothing achieves this objective like cultural division. I know this is cynical, but that's how I see things these days.
It's going to require individuals of unusual spirit and pluck to break through this net of negativity and remind us all that freedom includes the freedom to swim upstream and stand up against the mob. This type of individuality is quintessentially American and I hope we have enough of them to turn the tide of toxic ideology currently sweeping the country.
One, not sound logic (your first sentence). One has to understand how people end up in positions of power politically. We don't have a universality of choices. Again, look to Bush v Gore. The person who put China in the WTO was Bush, a real incompetent. But look at Biden, constantly telling us he'll get in trouble for what he might say. He's obviously not in charge but since he's a Democrat, it's OK? Radical leftists are in charge with a radical idiology. Garland is exposed as a hack. Lucky he was never made it to the Supreme Court. Everything is a hall of mirrors. We have ignored our education system that has FAILED to teach critical thinking. Obama had power for 8 years. What did he leave us? More corporate consolidation. Wrong about the working class too. They are NOT regressive. What does a degree in women's studies buy you or any other assortment of stupid majors at schools charging $60,000. a year? Plumbers and electricians are making more money than most in the professional class. Maybe some people have common sense and elites don't have it. This country has lost its way and we have seen with our own eyes outright corruption of our institutions. A realignment is underway because this country is not inherently racist...it's a diversion from the real agenda...which is something more ominous. Trump started calling the media FAKE NEWS which is exactly what it is. Propaganda. Follow the money...It will lead everywhere.
Good stuff, Lightwing. You should comment more.
What annoys me is that much of the popular тАЬresistanceтАЭ to legitimate outrage against D/woke/ is just a constant spluttering of OAN buzzwords and talking points. IтАЩve fond myself getting annoyed with friends not over substance per se, but just repetitive whining and an unwillingness to discuss/investigate/read further. IтАЩve told-give your children or nieces and nephews some George Orwell or Thomas Jefferson to read, or make them listen Colion Noir on YouTube-you are an adult!
Bob Marley said тАЬEmancipate yourself from mental slavery/None but you can free your mindтАЭ. People on the right are slow to do that-and by refusing, they allow their legitimate grievances/fears/positions to be shunted aside. Joe Rogan is always talking about how it is good to do difficult things-he meant standup comedy or extreme physical training-but fails to apply this to political thinking-his guests nudge him, but he isnтАЩt quite there yet-and most Trump voters arenтАЩt either.
It's the opposite. The Democrats are the ones with the radical agenda that helps corporations. They want open borders to keep wages down and themselves in power. They want to get along with China so corporations can continue to get products made by cheap or slave labor. Who is regressive? Meanwhile these same liars rant about a minimum wage while they create inflation and allow Chinese corporations to be listed on US stock exchanges without the same accountability as US corporations. US corporations are funding the Chinese communist party. Look at Blinken in Alaska. It was embarrassing. Joe Rogan isn't lying all the time or a propaganda organ. It's Democrats who refuse to debate. It's Democrats/left who talk about systemic racism...because we all know that China isn't racist. China is colonizing African countries but no one on the left is worried about the NEW colonialism. Buzz words on OAN? How about lies constantly repeated verbatim on every corporate platform?
Ultimately, you can think that....until the disastrous new education mandate of 1619 comes to a school near your children...or the cost of living hits you....when you are personally impacted by bad policy...you change your tune. People forget the good times. Gore would have been a far better President than Bush. But people thought the good times would last and Gore was a zero as a politician. Everything must be looked at from the lens of powerful monied interests. Corporations and Big Tech supported Obama and Biden...that should tell you something.
Totally agree except it is far worse than that. What they did to Trump was a coup and we discovered there were no institutions to protect us from the security state. As soon as some Dems see what's happening in their own communities, we'll see what happens. How long will mothers tolerate their children wearing masks or not going to school? When the Biden policies reveal a lower standard of living, higher gas prices and inflation, maybe what's happening will hit home. Trump also inadvertently revealed the cowardice of our elected officials...and the total failure to enforce anti-trust laws. Trump was terrible as an administrator. He had poor judgment in people. But look at Biden. The Dems are running the show for him. Here, Trump was betrayed by his own party who were revealed NOT to be an opposition party....thus the uniparty media, the uniparty BigTech, the uniparty corporations. Our federal system becomes significant now. And mothers enraged at what the state is doing to their children.
With 70 million people voting for President Trump no single explanation will work, but for those who voted for Obama then Trump, for those who see the riots this Summer in the same category as those who occupied the capital in January you will find the best answer in "The Rebel" by Albert Camus.
Camus describes the motivation for a terrorist in this book, but he might as well have been describing the politically disaffected in 2016 as well.
It's not just spite and nihilism, although those are strong justifications. At core it's the unique rage born from humiliation.
In a society where we believe financial success is a virtue and hard work in the path to that, millions had their hard work wiped out in 2008 and we are still feeling the reverberations today.
I think this Harper Article from 2014 captures much of what I am talking about for those approaching retirement{
https://harpers.org/archive/2014/08/the-end-of-retirement/
"The Rebel" best captures the experience for those under 40.
Areslent: I certainly hope you read the game theory research. One quickly realizes that a relatively street-smart loser almost always looks to challenge the game and thus the legitimacy of their loss rather than the opponent they just lost to.
It would appear to be a human trait.
I think your reference to game theory is correct.
For me, it's the elements of this process that game theory does not cover I find endlessly interesting.
It's always the shit you don't measure, isn't it.
If that doesn't sum up my decades of being a member of SSCP*, I don't know what does...
*The Society for a Science of Clinical Psychology (SSCP)
BillPD - what will game theory look like when the average American decides he needs to arm his family like Sad-ass husain - and starts buing up the vast arsenal of surplus military goods that only need a Black Amex and a few hundred grand?
It won't be worth the paper you used to game theory a resume on dude.
In re-reading your post, I'm not sure I am grokking the gist of your post, rick.
Therefore my original reply is likely not addressing it. apologies.
I do usually try to stay relevant.
You might be surprised, rl.
Funny you say "paper it's written on" since game theory is ironically considered the exact opposite of theory on paper--actually pitting people against each other.
The best active shooter training utilizes game theory in almost all aspects.
BTW, mine was not a criticism of Arselent, but rather further evidence.
Thanks for the link, but I think it's important to keep in mind that social security wasn't intended to bankroll universal 20 year retirements in sunny climates. When social security was first implemented in 1935, life expectancy was 58 for men and 62 for women. And the retirement age was 65. I certainly do have some empathy for the working elderly, but with increased life expectancy I also believe that the retirement age should be adjusted.
Try getting a job as a 55 year old in the IT industry where you've spent 30 years of your career building. They don't want you. Your comment about adjusting the retirement age assumes a level playing field.
Got that right. Adjusting the retirement age is just another ploy for them to configure their algorithms to calculate when the geezers are dying off in sufficient quantity as to not represent a threat at the polls. Any of the construction trades are easily toasted at 65, as are ALL of the essential services I keep hearing about that everyone is so glad to express their gratitude to but shaft in the ribs backstage...that are in that boat. Fuck adjusting the retirement age; we need a new program, if there's any program at all.
As a +55 in the IT industry (not an engineer) i certainly understand your concern on this.
Personally i have constantly upgraded my skill set and volunteered to take on new challenges and learn about the latest and greatest far in advance of it becoming widly adapted. That give me the advantage of early adopter over skilled worker, where the young do have advantages..
This approach ha landed me in consulting but i am already planning my next move for 5yrs from now when i hit 60 i will get myself into role that values my charm, good looks and gray hair
The scourge of the best woman actresses. I feel for you, Moxie.
I have found that a few good programmers with lacking social skills have soured the market for what was once viewed as wizardry.
And the reality matches neither: a lot of tech pros in their fifties are great folks to be around yet are just normal roll-up-the-sleeves problem solvers like everyone else.
Sorry about that, but I was looking back to what I learned 30 years ago, about IT, and realized it was more useless than the random bits of minor league stats I remember for players from the 50s and 60s.
There is nothing with less value than outdated tech knowledge.
Interesting, I did not take any of that (about social security and retirement age) from this story. Certainly I didn't read any of these retirees complaining or ever mentioning social security. They seem determined to make the most of a tough situation.
Well, I think it's sad to see elderly people working such jobs. But what's the solution? More social security? More welfare? Maybe. There was a common theme in that article that many lost their nest egg in the '08 crash. If we actually put bankers in jail for financial crimes, and there were plenty in '08,maybe we can prevent this from happening to the next generation. I can't imagine boomers having the same pick yourself up by the boostraps mentality as the silent generation.
If one goes back and reads enough history to know the background that informed FDR to implement most of his policies, and absolutely his policies related to China, they one would know that the mope was NOT some brilliant leader but just another sad ass rich guy making decisions on things he scarcely understood, or didn't understand at all. FDR was no hero for the future; he pretty much guaranteed disaster on multiple fronts, with SS being one of the programs leading the charge.
But they were POPULAR stupid, disastrous decisions, man.
Kurtocracy you have an interesting take that seems to not fit my understanding, but may enrich it.
This is not an area of expertise for me, he said mea culping...but my reading of history of the concept of a social savings account started with the Kaiser.
My European history prof in high school gave ample evidence that it was the way Germany unified from a bunch of small "nation states" into a unified nation for the first time in...well...ever.
So it has me somewhat intrigued that though completely different paths, we both eventually arrive at the SS.
I don't believe in coincidences, but sometimes evidence moves like quicksilver.
Thanks for your post!
тАЬIt's not just spite and nihilism, although those are strong justifications. At core it's the unique rage born from humiliation.тАЬ
That was always my understanding, and he was the "Not-Hillary Candidate", which is a pretty good recommendation.
Then he gets in office, forgets which finger he's supposed to be, and starts tweeting like a 12-year-old with his own phone for the first time (yea, I know...). All he had to do was fake being Presidential for few hours a week!! Was that too much to ask? Well, apparently it was. Damn.
It wasn't nihilism. It was the emergence of common sense. It was ripping the veil off phony "conservative" Republicans and "moderate" Republicans--as well as "moderate" Biden. It has mobilized people and mobilized the security state as well. Look at free speech. Look at censorship. Anyone who understands the constitution understands the importance of free speech and open platforms. The media's reputation was destroyed because of Trump--that alone is an accomplishment. New voices emerged. This is nihilism. Trump accomplished an important mission. He made people see how the corporate class was in league with the uniparty outsourcing jobs and manufacturing to China. He opened many people's eyes to institutionalized corruption at all levels.
A seminal moment that's been building for 30+ years - the silent anguish of millions of Americans who blamed themselves for the declining standard of living, having NOTHING to pass on an instead becoming a burden to their own kids (much like generatons prior to FDR's successful Social Security - for the first 50+ years)---people who now KNOW they are not to blame but have been screwed by the likes of Clinton/Obama/Biden and Bush/Cheney/the Mittster/McGoofy---and are back to the healthy kind of populist movement that can effect change - every bit as alive and effective as the Poor People's Campaign with MLK when race wasn''t about crony capitalism nor revenge - but - oppertunity.
Steve Bannon calls it a 'fourth turning' and comparable to Cotton Mather's GREAT AWAKENING - a piviotal movement to propel our eventual declared independence (a minority of Americans who did this and likewise fought the British to win it)
The more we let these Democrats under Biden do what they believe they can force through the more people will forget about Trump and his showmanship or social media manipulations - and instead compare and contrast his winning policies against the garbage coming out of these self-dealing elites in DC....
No you are not full of ....MAGA is a force that's been building like the worlds largest ball of string - a lot of threads. GWOT was really phase three - which is why I believe we are nearing the 'Missouri compromise' analogy on Civil War One informing historically the potential for another big Bang....
After all - go back to Bull Run...and all the idiots who put out a table and banquet believing it would be a spring campaign and jolly good entertainment - until they had to run for their lives when the realities of war crashed their party....
I believe yesterday's faceless Facebook decision is a shock that is silently being processed by the population. It could be close to "the final straw."
Trump is horrid, but he got even more votes the 2nd time around after years of media venom. Does that not suggest there is a serious disengagement of the electorate going on for some reason?
I do not agree that it is nihilism. I reserve that for the forces that are packing the Supreme Court, pulling down the statues, and laying in front of the fire truck to prevent it from getting to the car dealership that I just watched them torch LIVE on tv.
"Does that not suggest there is a serious disengagement of the electorate going on for some reason?"
I think you're getting to the meat of the point I was trying to make here.
Much of the public remains completely unmotivated to vote, and among motivated voters DJT got a narrow minority of the vote (according to official reports).
"Nothing will fundamentally change" doesn't seem to be an appealing advertising slogan for a lot of people. I'm kind of reminded of the ad campaign Domino's Pizza ran several years ago in which they openly admitted their pizza was shitty and promised to improve it.
The current administration does not even rise to the level of Domino's. Remember HRC's intendedly witty riposte to "MAGA": "America is already great"? Didn't play well with the many people in this country leading miserable, painful lives.
That was such an odious campaign. From the basket of deplorables, to the "we're going to put a lot of coal miners out of work". The Hillbots were but, but - listen to the whole statement she made, it's quoted out of context. I say bullshit, it was class dogwhistles with cya qualifiers tacked onto the end.
Bernie Sanders said it before, and Joe Biden said the same thing. Listen to Thomas Frank -
"Reminiscing about the 2016 Democratic effort, Biden recalled how Democratic strategists told him they intended to тАЬgive up on white working-class folksтАЭ. тАЬWell, look whatтАЩs happened,тАЭ he continued."
"He recalled in the interview being told by a Hillary Clinton operative in 2016 that he тАЬhad to make a distinction between progressive values and working-class valuesтАЭ."
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jun/22/joe-biden-mystique-election-democrats
Meanwhile Donald Trump was flying into flyover country to talk to the proles while Clinton was in Malibu and the Vinyard.
As recently as 2016 Biden still occasionally appeared to be compos mentis. The Dems may have made a strategic error in running her instead of him.
Oh well. We got what we got. No use crying over spilt milk, etc.
I blame Doris Matsui. She was the one who passed the letter around congress that all of the women signed urging Hillary to run. Which neutered any chance for Warren, for one.
And Obama too, who totally backed the wrong horse. I think Joe would have probably squeaked it.
But if either Clinton or Biden had won, it would have been business as usual and just delayed the inevitable election of Trump or someone similar.
Bernie might have gotten knocked out by the blob, but he got to make his mark.
Hillary became the evil she thought she grew up fighting when she hired Dick Morris to run Billy's campaign back in the 90's.
By 2016 she just looked like...well, the Emperor in Star Wars..."you fool, you thought you were strong enough to fight me? You are weak, Bernie Skywalker."
She showed her colors as "Second Vice President" in 93-94 when she tried to sell her healthcare plan by contemptuously spitting out how she was going to "get rid of all those pencil-pushers in the insurance industry" (spitting out those "p"s as if she were saying "profit"), as if A) those employed pencil pushers weren't taxpaying Americans (and voters) and B) there wasn't the insane implication in there that if only the GOVERNMENT was running our health care...there wouldn't be paper pushers? They'd all be doctors and nurses?? Has she ever SEEN a government agency,, bureau, department?? (of course she had, and they were all full of nice unionized Democratic voters)
Absolutely insane. And contemptuous of the cognitive abilities of her fellow Americans. What a pig.
Trollificus: too tiny of a point to be a criticism of your post, but Hillary-care did not mean the government would be "in your health care" as much as they were assuming the role of insurer.
There are few more fucked up private industry sectors as health care insurance. Possibly the re-insurance market.
And to get completely off-base, why the hell is medical care of my teeth a whole separate insurance?
I'm just not sure even the government would be worse...
Free market means I have eight trash trucks that come through my hood on trash day. How many more until it just makes sense to make it a utility?
Mea culpa, I really am asking as I do not know.
I get that you're proposing that health insurance just *might* be the one area of endeavor that could be improved by being in government hands. My wife has had a career in medical insurance and I'm not sure she would disagree. We spend hours puzzling over management decisions that make things worse, procedures that are perfectly counterintuitive for a company that actually valued efficiency and other foible. The best company she worked for was Principal Financial's insurance sector and they bailed about 10 years ago, so you may be right.
GK - invite- 1st Fri (7th) Phoenix Art Mus
FREE - 3 - 7...RL in AIR FORCE hat & matching neck Gator...
(High on Ripple - Shit E'tin grin)
Can't make it, man, but thanks.
Consider the Desert Door open
Was an awesome show.
Link to this story, please?
Which story?
The one regarding someone laying down in front of a fire truck to prevent it from traveling to a car dealership fire. Thanks!
My comment reflects what I remember from nightly newscasts. We live in the St. Louis media market and have had the opportunity to watch days and nights of protesting, live. The night the St. Louis grand jury returned a no true bill against the officer investigated for the shooting of Michael Brown (Nov. 24, 2014), the latter's stepfather admonished protesters to "burn the bitch down." Among other destruction, local news helicopter coverage showed a person lighting cars on fire at a dealer; no one arrested him and it was deemed too dangerous for the fire department to respond to it and many other fires due to reports of gunfire. A CNN report from that time says airspace was actually closed by the FAA over Ferguson for awhile due to guns fired in the air. (I hadn't remembered that). On May 31, 2020 , George Floyd protesters looted then burned down a 7-11 in downtown St.Louis. A Post-Dispatch reporter tweeted that the fire chief "said protesters blocked fire trucks from responding . . . a few laid down in the street, rolled trash cans in the way . . ."
Please. Corporate bankruptcies. It's legal and done by so many in the corporate class. Does it even compare to Goldman Sachs, the ratings companies etc when they tanked our economy in 2007? Obama let them off scott free. When you focus on the small stuff (and the bankruptcies were legal and done all the time) you miss the big picture. The comment about Trump's positives are accurate.; There was no Republican onboard with the substantive changes and alliances that Trump impacted. His inability to be a Ron DeSantis is apparent. But there was only Trump running against Hillary. No other Republican running would have won. No other Republican would have inadvertently created a new movement in the Republican party. No other Republican would have inadvertently exposed all the Republican think tanks. In fact many of those groups were working on taking Trump down. So when the Koch brothers are against you...and the Club for Growth--how bad can you really be when there is no one else in power calling out our stupid and phony "free trade" policies?
In some strange way, by simply speaking, you explain what I mean by тАЬI donтАЩt understandтАЭ.