General comment: Thank you SO much for the "book club." I can't keep up with you, but I read Orwell and Heller, both previously read 50+ years ago. Shocking to me that I remembered almost nothing about either. Except being left with permanent fear about totalitarianism. (Appropriate takeaway.) Without your prompting I would not have re-visited these books and I am so glad I did. Both are really different to me at 75 than they were at 13 and 20. Big lesson. I am so grateful to you both. And I do pray that Walter gets the Library of Congress job. We need a true protector of literature in charge.
Wonderful & insightful discussion! Thank you both so much! re literature, just thinking, at the end of the show Matt and Walter speculated that their must be some other major scandal still under the carpet which caused everyone to change their tunes and fall in line in unison early in December, 2016, and that what that major hidden scandal was will still come out in time. Here's an alternative speculation. Maybe it was more of a "Young Goodman Brown" (Hawthorne) situation, where everyone in the town had just become personally corrupted by the goodies they were receiving. Everyone knew they stood to lose all their marbles if they did not play along with the preferred narrative. (Pull a long face, and you're out.) So they played along, in unison. Like a flock of birds who all turn at the same time.
Walter touched on something I've been thinking about for a while, namely, the impact that this grand hoax had on U.S.-Russia relations after 2016. This is a woefully underdiscussed aspect of this story. We know how much time (Mueller investigation, interruption of Trump's first-term agenda due to an imposed refocus) and money (again, Mueller investigation, legal fees for ensnared Trump people) were spent on this scandal. How would the U.S.'s relationship with Russia look had these time and money drains never happened? Maybe it would be every bit as contentious as it is today. But maybe it wouldn't.
You bring up a very important point. The Russia-gate hoax severely damaged relations between the US and Russia. It was partly an anti-Russia intelligence operation designed demonize Russia in the minds of US citizens. Diplomacy was thus eschewed, resulting in the imposition of sanctions and a NATO proxy war against Russia in Ukraine. It has also prompted the US pulling out of the vital INF and Open Skies treaties, with New Start II being the only remaining nuclear arms agreement we have with Russia; not a very comforting reality.
If you happen to believe that USA is the navel of the Earth, and not a single mouth dares breathe without a permission from the State Department,, then sure.
In the reality-based world Ukraine, let alone Russia, do not need US to do things, and Russia has been pushing the "evil US" and "Ukrainians do not even exist" long before 2014.
How about when a President says on a hot mic, he can be more “flexible” after the upcoming US election? How about a US President saying it depends on “how minor an incursion . . .” Tens of thousands have died. A total country bombed to rubble. Someone has a lot to answer for. And several of them were in the room, Dec., 2016. Yes?
Laura Ingram is showing a video of Obama, 12/16/16. You have to believe intelligence. Just, wow. There is a lot of video tape. How do they explain this?
What a great episode. Does anybody remember when Congressional Dems invited Colbert to testify in support of immigration reform, and of course he showed up in his Colreilly persona? Such a clever and at the same time insightful guy.
Today someone on Substack invited you to say if you have never watched SC. I never have. Someone else posted a sculpture of a seal and dedicated it to The Late Show viewers. Well done.
Anyway, this discussion is the best. Excusing “occasional porn viewership for research purposes only . . .” I have to say I thought the video in Russia was funny, except as WK said — it was meant to be “60 Minutes,” for the kool-aid set. And they drank it all up.
If there can be anything worse than undermining the election, it could be the Covid fear that was weaponized against us. That video of SC and Fauci is so horrid. People should be angry.
Like many commenters, I too lost many friends over Russiagate. Since 2017, I've been trying to figure out why, and I offer a few observations. The friends I lost were all long-time friends, female, and experienced attorneys with very high opinions of themselves. All of us had been practicing law for at least 20 years, and we worked in a collegial environment where we routinely reviewed and edited each other's work to assure quality. So, we were used to thinking critically and giving and taking constructive criticism. We were all Dems. They hated Trump for his crudeness, thought his followers were lowlifes, and loved Hillary. No one ever gave a reason for loving Hillary--she was a woman, and that was enough. They seemed to welcome and relish the Russiagate narrative. When they brought it up, and I posed questions about the narrative, none of them would engage at all. They just looked at me with the "dead" look of shark eyes. And indeed, I became "dead" to them. No one was rude or screamed, but they made it clear that I was "out." They had spent their entire lives thinking of themselves as the smart, good people who belonged to the Good People Party, and, I suspect, they couldn't bear letting even a crack of light in--for fear of having to use their critical thinking skills and perhaps running afoul of the Group.
I’ve not only lost long-term friends over this, I’m talking 45-50 years, but even worse, immediate family that now keep their distance.
I hope to God the likes of journalists like Matt and Walter will illuminate every criminal act done by all the perpetrators and hold them all accountable. Only then will the disbelievers maybe be able to change their minds. Honestly, I’m not that hopeful.
I was in Europe at the time that "Operation Smear Trump/Russia, Russia, Russia!! " was in full swing. I had a meeting with the ambassador of 'X' country. We talked about many things- why we didn't provide healthcare to all citizens ( I had a discussion with Ambassador X about the fact there was a 10k difference in between X country and the U. S. on the threshold of federal tax kicking in, the amount of GDP spent on Euro defense, etc), and I was trying to explain the U. S. position from a right of center point of view. At some point, the ambassador said, "...I'm worried about President Trump's Russia problem...". I asked if they knew of the 'two hop' rule and the role of Carter Page and the U. S. security services using him to electronically infiltrate 'Trump World', and tried to defend the President. I walked away from that meeting wondering if they believed any thing I said and I have often wondered if the truth, subsequently revealed, has permeated the diplomatic community in Europe. Elements of our government did a huge disservice to the foreign policy of our nation. I will never forgive them and they should have to spend a lot of money in legal fees, whether or not they ever go to jail.
Odd how the Europeans political elites are gushing over Trump now that he's done a 180 and seems to be down with the whole "Putin Bad Man" ethos of the war party and is arming Ukraine to the teeth; though the US has no interest as to whose flag flies over eastern Ukraine. Seems the Donald is shunning the antiwar philosophy of Tucker Carlson for Lady Lindsey Graham's ever-waxing bloodlust and his like-minded stooges in the European political class. Somewhere, methinks, de Gaulle and von Bismarck are not-so-quietly rolling in their graves.
It never made sense that Putin wanted Trump. He rolled Clinton before- remember the reset button? Trump was a wild card- go with what you know. Remember how stupid this all was? They went after Trump because of the ridiculous Steele Dossier and because Trump made a joke about maybe the Russians (or Chinese) had the emails Hillary destroyed to cover up her activities while Secretary of State and cashing in through Bill's paid appearances and their ridiculous money-making scheme foundation. Remember how serious all these MSNBC types and the neocons were about the joke? "Donald Trump is asking Putin to interfere on his behalf." Actually, no, it was a joke and btw, law enforcement gets evidence of crimes from all kinds of nefarious sources. We were all looking for evidence that HRC attempted to destroy, which is a crime in and of itself btw. Well some of us were looking for it or hoping it turned up somewhere. Others, not so much.
Matt and Walter bring up a question that I have pondered for years. Why, what was the motivation, behind Colbert’s becoming a 100% captured puppet of the Democratic Party? And then they also ask another very valid question regarding motives - what changed within the Obama intelligence community to persuade them to abandon any previous attempt at doing their jobs honestly?
In today's news, a judge is named in Trump's lawsuit against the Wall Street Journal over a smutty and cryptic birthday card supposedly sent By Trump to alleged CIA/Mossad financial fixer/blackmailer and convicted pedophile Jeffrey Epstein. Also, MAGA world shows more signs of splintering as both US ambassador to Israel Mike Huckabee and conservative influencer Michael Knowles express disgust over Israeli military and Jewish settler actions towards Palestinian Christians in the West Bank and Gaza. Finally, Matt Taibbi and Walter Kirn rename their popular podcast "America this Week" after a bit of honest self-reflection and soul-searching to "How to Stir Up the Rubes so as to Beguile and Distract Them From More Important Matters by Ensnaring Them in the Byzantine and Wanton Tale of Slimy Swamp Creatures Whom You Already Knew Were Crooked."
I agree. This turn away from the Epstein drama is disconcerting at best and an indicator of being captured by the current regime. To say I’m disappointed is an understatement. I expected more from these guys.
I'm listening to this on delay on the Substack app, and I just got to the part where you asked for listeners to reflect on whether they'd lost relationships with family members or friends over this story, back in the day.
Family no, Friends yes.
Please, guys, do not let this go. Please keep digging, please keep reporting on this. This is the most important media story... I dunno, since the Berlin Wall came down?? The people who did this... well. It's important for our nation that they be held accountable. Very, very accountable.
A commenter on today’s podcast told me Walter Kirn addressed his pursuit of an appointment within Trump’s government on Friday’s episode of ATW.
There seems to be no outrage among the seals. Well…okay. The average Trump supporter would not be found guilty by a jury of peers of being Terribly Bright.
Given the deep and abiding resentment and bitterness, though, of the ethical failures (there were plenty) of the previous administration it’s evidence of the illness currently suffocating America that partisans will turn away purposefully from similar breaches on their “side”.
The silent majority here, then, are signing off on any notion this podcast is anything other than a Trump cheering section hanging out in the nosebleeds.
Dude: I think you should realize the many Trump supporters were in the lesser-of-two-evils camp. At least for me, I believe foreign policy drives domestic policy, so I reluctantly pulled the lever for Orange Man Bad, since at least I could harken back to Trump in the first iteration being less of a war party stooge than Clinton, W., and Obama (whom I voted for twice, given the war party alternatives of McCain and Romney). I never had total faith that he could end the whole Russia-Ukraine thing, and it's obvious from his heretofore actions that he's beholden to Zionist interests, but at least he made gestures towards ending the Eastern European tragedy when Biden and co. were all about furthering the "sake" of Ukraine at any cost. I had hope; though his recent deeds in regards to Epstein, Ukraine, and Gaza leave me cold, and I am not alone in MAGA world; a large chunk of his base is pissed and I believe this dynamic shall sink the GOP's chances in the midterms. At this point I'll vote for any politician who is willing to take a Mamdani-like US first position and unshackle us from Zionist influence. Given that the younger folk all throughout the political spectrum are over the whole Greater Israel project maybe we can finally realize real hope and change, and we may yet again have a president like JFK who stood up for the interests of the American people and is truly America First; though right now most politicians on both sides of the isle are suckling at the teats of both mother war machine and her bastard daughter known as the Israel lobby. BTW, if Kirn is seeking a position at the Library of Congress this would make him an unreliable narrator par excellence.
I understand that. Truly. The Democrats sickened me. Especially after the Bernie Sanders primary betrayal of young people. But Trump is a bad human and your country is on a bad path. Cynics like Taibbi both capitalize and promote the division. It’s sickening.
I don’t disagree entirely that Trump is a cu*t, but if he really is going to bring back essential manufacturing, deal with our trade imbalances, and vet who comes into our homeland I am down with that. It is a strategic imperative; if COVID showed us anything it exposed how woefully dependent we are on foreign manufacturing and supply chains. Should a WW2-like situation arise (God forbid) were are f*cked. I mean, the whole of NATO can’t even keep pace with Russian munitions production. As far as Matt is concerned, I think he chose a business model that caters to Republican-leaning Boomers, especially given that Walter is the embodiment of said folks. I am OK with these two highlighting D corruption but I am not OK with them giving R crookedness a pass at the same time. I know they can chew gum and walk at the same time.
It is always the lesser of the two, unless you clearly can choose by the primaries. This time it was clearly the more capable of the two long before the conventions.
Gee, the same political party and its media that did this also are the same political party and media that covered up Biden's mental issues, to be charitable, for four years. And it's the same political party that, when out of power, is no longer "the loyal opposition" but is now "The Resistance." See a pattern here?
General comment: Thank you SO much for the "book club." I can't keep up with you, but I read Orwell and Heller, both previously read 50+ years ago. Shocking to me that I remembered almost nothing about either. Except being left with permanent fear about totalitarianism. (Appropriate takeaway.) Without your prompting I would not have re-visited these books and I am so glad I did. Both are really different to me at 75 than they were at 13 and 20. Big lesson. I am so grateful to you both. And I do pray that Walter gets the Library of Congress job. We need a true protector of literature in charge.
Wonderful & insightful discussion! Thank you both so much! re literature, just thinking, at the end of the show Matt and Walter speculated that their must be some other major scandal still under the carpet which caused everyone to change their tunes and fall in line in unison early in December, 2016, and that what that major hidden scandal was will still come out in time. Here's an alternative speculation. Maybe it was more of a "Young Goodman Brown" (Hawthorne) situation, where everyone in the town had just become personally corrupted by the goodies they were receiving. Everyone knew they stood to lose all their marbles if they did not play along with the preferred narrative. (Pull a long face, and you're out.) So they played along, in unison. Like a flock of birds who all turn at the same time.
Walter touched on something I've been thinking about for a while, namely, the impact that this grand hoax had on U.S.-Russia relations after 2016. This is a woefully underdiscussed aspect of this story. We know how much time (Mueller investigation, interruption of Trump's first-term agenda due to an imposed refocus) and money (again, Mueller investigation, legal fees for ensnared Trump people) were spent on this scandal. How would the U.S.'s relationship with Russia look had these time and money drains never happened? Maybe it would be every bit as contentious as it is today. But maybe it wouldn't.
You bring up a very important point. The Russia-gate hoax severely damaged relations between the US and Russia. It was partly an anti-Russia intelligence operation designed demonize Russia in the minds of US citizens. Diplomacy was thus eschewed, resulting in the imposition of sanctions and a NATO proxy war against Russia in Ukraine. It has also prompted the US pulling out of the vital INF and Open Skies treaties, with New Start II being the only remaining nuclear arms agreement we have with Russia; not a very comforting reality.
If you happen to believe that USA is the navel of the Earth, and not a single mouth dares breathe without a permission from the State Department,, then sure.
In the reality-based world Ukraine, let alone Russia, do not need US to do things, and Russia has been pushing the "evil US" and "Ukrainians do not even exist" long before 2014.
How about when a President says on a hot mic, he can be more “flexible” after the upcoming US election? How about a US President saying it depends on “how minor an incursion . . .” Tens of thousands have died. A total country bombed to rubble. Someone has a lot to answer for. And several of them were in the room, Dec., 2016. Yes?
Victoria Nuland was on that list, I noticed.
They are all so clever — and, untouchable.
Laura Ingram is showing a video of Obama, 12/16/16. You have to believe intelligence. Just, wow. There is a lot of video tape. How do they explain this?
Any time a narrative comes out that basically prohibits debate, RED FLAGS pop up all over for me.
I lost friends and family members, too.
I moved on- that's life.
What a great episode. Does anybody remember when Congressional Dems invited Colbert to testify in support of immigration reform, and of course he showed up in his Colreilly persona? Such a clever and at the same time insightful guy.
Today someone on Substack invited you to say if you have never watched SC. I never have. Someone else posted a sculpture of a seal and dedicated it to The Late Show viewers. Well done.
Anyway, this discussion is the best. Excusing “occasional porn viewership for research purposes only . . .” I have to say I thought the video in Russia was funny, except as WK said — it was meant to be “60 Minutes,” for the kool-aid set. And they drank it all up.
If there can be anything worse than undermining the election, it could be the Covid fear that was weaponized against us. That video of SC and Fauci is so horrid. People should be angry.
Like many commenters, I too lost many friends over Russiagate. Since 2017, I've been trying to figure out why, and I offer a few observations. The friends I lost were all long-time friends, female, and experienced attorneys with very high opinions of themselves. All of us had been practicing law for at least 20 years, and we worked in a collegial environment where we routinely reviewed and edited each other's work to assure quality. So, we were used to thinking critically and giving and taking constructive criticism. We were all Dems. They hated Trump for his crudeness, thought his followers were lowlifes, and loved Hillary. No one ever gave a reason for loving Hillary--she was a woman, and that was enough. They seemed to welcome and relish the Russiagate narrative. When they brought it up, and I posed questions about the narrative, none of them would engage at all. They just looked at me with the "dead" look of shark eyes. And indeed, I became "dead" to them. No one was rude or screamed, but they made it clear that I was "out." They had spent their entire lives thinking of themselves as the smart, good people who belonged to the Good People Party, and, I suspect, they couldn't bear letting even a crack of light in--for fear of having to use their critical thinking skills and perhaps running afoul of the Group.
I’ve not only lost long-term friends over this, I’m talking 45-50 years, but even worse, immediate family that now keep their distance.
I hope to God the likes of journalists like Matt and Walter will illuminate every criminal act done by all the perpetrators and hold them all accountable. Only then will the disbelievers maybe be able to change their minds. Honestly, I’m not that hopeful.
I was in Europe at the time that "Operation Smear Trump/Russia, Russia, Russia!! " was in full swing. I had a meeting with the ambassador of 'X' country. We talked about many things- why we didn't provide healthcare to all citizens ( I had a discussion with Ambassador X about the fact there was a 10k difference in between X country and the U. S. on the threshold of federal tax kicking in, the amount of GDP spent on Euro defense, etc), and I was trying to explain the U. S. position from a right of center point of view. At some point, the ambassador said, "...I'm worried about President Trump's Russia problem...". I asked if they knew of the 'two hop' rule and the role of Carter Page and the U. S. security services using him to electronically infiltrate 'Trump World', and tried to defend the President. I walked away from that meeting wondering if they believed any thing I said and I have often wondered if the truth, subsequently revealed, has permeated the diplomatic community in Europe. Elements of our government did a huge disservice to the foreign policy of our nation. I will never forgive them and they should have to spend a lot of money in legal fees, whether or not they ever go to jail.
Odd how the Europeans political elites are gushing over Trump now that he's done a 180 and seems to be down with the whole "Putin Bad Man" ethos of the war party and is arming Ukraine to the teeth; though the US has no interest as to whose flag flies over eastern Ukraine. Seems the Donald is shunning the antiwar philosophy of Tucker Carlson for Lady Lindsey Graham's ever-waxing bloodlust and his like-minded stooges in the European political class. Somewhere, methinks, de Gaulle and von Bismarck are not-so-quietly rolling in their graves.
It never made sense that Putin wanted Trump. He rolled Clinton before- remember the reset button? Trump was a wild card- go with what you know. Remember how stupid this all was? They went after Trump because of the ridiculous Steele Dossier and because Trump made a joke about maybe the Russians (or Chinese) had the emails Hillary destroyed to cover up her activities while Secretary of State and cashing in through Bill's paid appearances and their ridiculous money-making scheme foundation. Remember how serious all these MSNBC types and the neocons were about the joke? "Donald Trump is asking Putin to interfere on his behalf." Actually, no, it was a joke and btw, law enforcement gets evidence of crimes from all kinds of nefarious sources. We were all looking for evidence that HRC attempted to destroy, which is a crime in and of itself btw. Well some of us were looking for it or hoping it turned up somewhere. Others, not so much.
Yup and pushed nato for more spending and most importantly wanted aggressive fossil fuel growth in the USA , it just didn’t make sense
I notice that the Wikipedia article has not changed the messaging.
The one person I really hope wakes the F up is Bill Maher.
Bill Maher used to be the anti-institution guy.
But since Trump he's got TDS and has lost so much of his critical thinking.
This was the origin of TDS. We lost the respect of The Office of the President over this.
Matt and Walter bring up a question that I have pondered for years. Why, what was the motivation, behind Colbert’s becoming a 100% captured puppet of the Democratic Party? And then they also ask another very valid question regarding motives - what changed within the Obama intelligence community to persuade them to abandon any previous attempt at doing their jobs honestly?
New boss. They had completed an honest assessment. They were instructed to create dishonest intelligence the next day, and all did it!
Thanks. In other words, just “doing their jobs”
I suy
In today's news, a judge is named in Trump's lawsuit against the Wall Street Journal over a smutty and cryptic birthday card supposedly sent By Trump to alleged CIA/Mossad financial fixer/blackmailer and convicted pedophile Jeffrey Epstein. Also, MAGA world shows more signs of splintering as both US ambassador to Israel Mike Huckabee and conservative influencer Michael Knowles express disgust over Israeli military and Jewish settler actions towards Palestinian Christians in the West Bank and Gaza. Finally, Matt Taibbi and Walter Kirn rename their popular podcast "America this Week" after a bit of honest self-reflection and soul-searching to "How to Stir Up the Rubes so as to Beguile and Distract Them From More Important Matters by Ensnaring Them in the Byzantine and Wanton Tale of Slimy Swamp Creatures Whom You Already Knew Were Crooked."
I agree. This turn away from the Epstein drama is disconcerting at best and an indicator of being captured by the current regime. To say I’m disappointed is an understatement. I expected more from these guys.
Great title! A bit long 😉
Agreed, though I find it fitting.
You’re new here. Smiling sun emoji
"The walls are closing in" isn't enough.
There must be arrests.
> sleepy skull, happens at nighttime and not in daytime
Holy shit. Walter Kirn, you nailed it. OMG.
I'm listening to this on delay on the Substack app, and I just got to the part where you asked for listeners to reflect on whether they'd lost relationships with family members or friends over this story, back in the day.
Family no, Friends yes.
Please, guys, do not let this go. Please keep digging, please keep reporting on this. This is the most important media story... I dunno, since the Berlin Wall came down?? The people who did this... well. It's important for our nation that they be held accountable. Very, very accountable.
A commenter on today’s podcast told me Walter Kirn addressed his pursuit of an appointment within Trump’s government on Friday’s episode of ATW.
There seems to be no outrage among the seals. Well…okay. The average Trump supporter would not be found guilty by a jury of peers of being Terribly Bright.
Given the deep and abiding resentment and bitterness, though, of the ethical failures (there were plenty) of the previous administration it’s evidence of the illness currently suffocating America that partisans will turn away purposefully from similar breaches on their “side”.
The silent majority here, then, are signing off on any notion this podcast is anything other than a Trump cheering section hanging out in the nosebleeds.
There is no “Average Trump Voter.”
They are ALL average. And below. No exceptions. He’s scum. His supporters are scum. Every. Last. One.
Dude: I think you should realize the many Trump supporters were in the lesser-of-two-evils camp. At least for me, I believe foreign policy drives domestic policy, so I reluctantly pulled the lever for Orange Man Bad, since at least I could harken back to Trump in the first iteration being less of a war party stooge than Clinton, W., and Obama (whom I voted for twice, given the war party alternatives of McCain and Romney). I never had total faith that he could end the whole Russia-Ukraine thing, and it's obvious from his heretofore actions that he's beholden to Zionist interests, but at least he made gestures towards ending the Eastern European tragedy when Biden and co. were all about furthering the "sake" of Ukraine at any cost. I had hope; though his recent deeds in regards to Epstein, Ukraine, and Gaza leave me cold, and I am not alone in MAGA world; a large chunk of his base is pissed and I believe this dynamic shall sink the GOP's chances in the midterms. At this point I'll vote for any politician who is willing to take a Mamdani-like US first position and unshackle us from Zionist influence. Given that the younger folk all throughout the political spectrum are over the whole Greater Israel project maybe we can finally realize real hope and change, and we may yet again have a president like JFK who stood up for the interests of the American people and is truly America First; though right now most politicians on both sides of the isle are suckling at the teats of both mother war machine and her bastard daughter known as the Israel lobby. BTW, if Kirn is seeking a position at the Library of Congress this would make him an unreliable narrator par excellence.
I understand that. Truly. The Democrats sickened me. Especially after the Bernie Sanders primary betrayal of young people. But Trump is a bad human and your country is on a bad path. Cynics like Taibbi both capitalize and promote the division. It’s sickening.
I don’t disagree entirely that Trump is a cu*t, but if he really is going to bring back essential manufacturing, deal with our trade imbalances, and vet who comes into our homeland I am down with that. It is a strategic imperative; if COVID showed us anything it exposed how woefully dependent we are on foreign manufacturing and supply chains. Should a WW2-like situation arise (God forbid) were are f*cked. I mean, the whole of NATO can’t even keep pace with Russian munitions production. As far as Matt is concerned, I think he chose a business model that caters to Republican-leaning Boomers, especially given that Walter is the embodiment of said folks. I am OK with these two highlighting D corruption but I am not OK with them giving R crookedness a pass at the same time. I know they can chew gum and walk at the same time.
It is always the lesser of the two, unless you clearly can choose by the primaries. This time it was clearly the more capable of the two long before the conventions.
I'm sure your sources are the creme de la creme.
I’m well read. Better than you without any doubt.
Don’t put $ on it.
And your source for this wisdom?
What wisdom?
None. Beginning. En masse.
Bullshit. 1) were Kamala voters Bright? 2) Obama and his successors are the worst ever. They hate America (especially white people)
Bright Americans are like buffalo. It’s not a partisan issue particularly.
Gee, the same political party and its media that did this also are the same political party and media that covered up Biden's mental issues, to be charitable, for four years. And it's the same political party that, when out of power, is no longer "the loyal opposition" but is now "The Resistance." See a pattern here?